Brain Based Parenting
Brain Based Parenting, The Boys Ranch Podcast for families.
We all know how hard being a parent is, and sometimes it feels like there are no good answers to the difficult questions families have when their kids are struggling.
Our goal each week will be to try and answer some of those tough questions utilizing the knowledge, experience, and professional training Cal Farley’s Boys Ranch has to offer.
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podcasts@calfarley.org
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To Apply:
https://apply.workable.com/cal-farleys-boys-ranch/j/25E1226091/
For More Information about Cal Farley's Boys Ranch:
https://www.calfarley.org/
Music:
"Shine" -Newsboys
CCS License No. 9402
Brain Based Parenting
Redefining Discipline: From Force to Cooperation
Discipline is often misunderstood as punishment, when it's actually about teaching and guiding children through boundaries and relationship. We explore how effective discipline builds cooperation rather than forcing compliance.
• Discipline's true purpose is teaching, not punishment or making children feel bad
• Force creates only temporary compliance, not lasting behavioral change
• Children's behavior communicates needs; our job is to be curious, not judgmental
• Balancing structure and nurture is key to effective discipline
• Strong relationships make discipline more effective and meaningful
Contact:
podcasts@calfarley.org
To Donate:
https://secure.calfarley.org/site/Donation2?3358.donation=form1&df_id=3358&mfc_pref=T
To Apply:
https://apply.workable.com/cal-farleys-boys-ranch/j/25E1226091/
For More Information about Cal Farley's Boys Ranch:
https://www.calfarley.org/
Music:
"Shine" -Newsboys
CCS License No. 9402
Welcome to Brain-Based Parenting, the Boys Ranch podcast for families. We all know how hard being a parent is, and sometimes it feels like there are no good answers to the difficult questions families have when their kids are struggling. Our goal each week will be to try and answer some of those tough questions, utilizing the knowledge, experience and professional training Cal Farley's Boys Ranch has to offer. Now here is your host, Cal Farley's Staff Development Coordinator, Joshua Sprock.
Speaker 2:Welcome back and thank you for joining us today as we continue talking about brain-based parenting. Today we're going to begin a series on discipline To do that. I'm joined today by Michelle Mycatter, our Chief Program Officer. Hello, sam Cerna.
Speaker 2:I'm joined today by Michelle Mycatter, our chief program officer. Sam Cerna, assistant administrator over residential communities Hi. And Chloe Hewitt, also assistant administrator over residential communities Hi. All right, like we do every week, we're going to start with our question of the day, and since we're talking about discipline today, and at the heart of discipline is teaching, my question for you is who was your favorite teacher growing up and why? Oh man, that's a tough one that's a little bit farther back for me than the rest of y'all.
Speaker 3:My favorite teacher was Miss Crawford and she was my English teacher, and the reason why I liked her so much was because one I liked English and so she made English fun, and why I liked it and then the other thing was is because she would tell you when you did something well, and I had a lot of teachers that didn't do that.
Speaker 4:Mine is Miss Martinez. She was my fifth grade teacher and I really liked her because she was just different than other teachers. She would do fun projects. It's back when she had a camcorder and she would have us do these fun interactive projects like reenact, the Battle of Bull Run or some music video. I don't remember why we were doing that, but she did really cool things like that and I think she had a good way of talking to us that made us feel good.
Speaker 5:Yeah, mine would be my eighth grade teacher, Ms Trask, and I remember my best friend at the time was Lauren and she was really struggling with math. So Ms Trask had asked me if I would stay after every day so Lauren wasn't by herself working extra and then she would buy us popcorn and I remember I just loved it. So she would go down to Teacher's Lounge and make us popcorn and then we would do math games to help Lauren do better, and it really impacted me the amount of extra time she spent with us.
Speaker 2:All right, so we're going to be talking about discipline for the next several weeks, so maybe we better start by defining it. What would you guys say is discipline?
Speaker 3:You know, we talk about this a lot when we talk about doing trainings and what do we want to accomplish, and so I think discipline is misunderstood in a lot of ways. But discipline is meant to provide guidance and to help steer somebody in the right direction to be able to be successful.
Speaker 4:Correct. I mean, like you said, I think it's a real big teaching tool. I think it's a cornerstone to help young people grow.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think a lot of times. When I think of discipline, I think it goes hand in hand with boundaries, right? Like? So we're helping our children know the right way and so we're teaching them, but coming alongside them. Instead of it being punishment based, we want them to learn so that they can discern what's the right decision Right.
Speaker 2:So that kind of leads me into my next question. One of my favorite quotes in regards to discipline is force is all conquering, but its victories are short lived.
Speaker 3:What do you think about this quote in regards to discipline? I like that quote too, and I think it goes to everything we're saying about kind of misunderstandings about what discipline is about, and sometimes we think it means scaring people or using force to make sure that people comply. You know, you can do, you can make people do anything with enough force, but often what we're trying to do with children is transform them to a way of thinking where they can function on their own, and so really force has no place in discipline.
Speaker 4:I agree, and it's really. Force is only as good as long as it's there for the control piece of it. All right. What we're trying to do is get young people to do what they're supposed to do, because it's the right thing to do. And you know, one of the things is, if you're always using force, they're not really learning anything. They're just doing it because they're scared or they feel powerless, and so the idea is to teach them versus make them.
Speaker 5:I think it's always important to like, even with my own kids and even with our residents out here, with that when they make a mistake, I want them to feel like they can come back, and if you're using force as the reason for the discipline, are they going to want to come back and so really just always leaving that open where they could come back and have a conversation when they do make mistakes.
Speaker 4:Well, I think it's what we, the question of the day brought up something for us, right? We all thought about the person that we picked. I have plenty of other teachers that use more force, and you were just scared of them. You'd feel like you could talk to them, and so I think that's one of the big differences.
Speaker 2:So maybe we can talk a little bit about some misconceptions about what discipline is and to do that maybe, what's the difference between discipline and punishment?
Speaker 3:I think probably one of the misconceptions that discipline gets confused with punishment is that it should hurt or it should make you feel bad or make you feel worse, and I think that's one of the most harmful aspects of it is that often, especially with kiddos that we work with, but a lot of the adults are the same way is that we have enough bad feelings about ourselves and so adding to that, well of you know, feeling inadequate or shameful doesn't make us perform better.
Speaker 4:I agree and I don't, you know, I don't think people ever forget that when somebody is trying, maybe they're trying to do the right thing, but I know I don't ever forget that some mean thing an adult may have said to me. And yeah, sure it might have made me comply, but I also believe that it creates it can create tons of insecurity.
Speaker 5:Well, I think that's why I like therapeutic discipline. So much is right. It's about allowing the child to have some power in whatever consequence they're going to receive, and so, instead of it giving us, as the adult, taking all the power, it's giving the power some to the child about what consequence they have for whatever occurred.
Speaker 4:I think that also gives you a pretty good barometer in how they're thinking right. When you ask a child, hey, what would you be willing to do to make this right? Are thinking right. When you ask a child, hey, what would you be willing to do to make this right? You can kind of see that sometimes they'll go overboard or sometimes they don't think they need enough and we can help guide them into how and teaching them how do you go about making something right, how do you go about apologizing, or how do you do it or modeling it or things like that. That's more of the idea than just the punishment part of it all.
Speaker 5:Yeah, especially like what Michelle was saying. Really, you want them to move forward and have some power in it, and so you can move forward and I think to the differences.
Speaker 3:You know. If you're just wanting to hurt somebody or make them, you know, pay for something they did to punishment would be like if I had an argument with Sam, I would have to write a paper about why I shouldn't argue with Sam. They've thinking about discipline and what you want to learn from that situation is how to resolve a conflict in a peaceful way. So then, if I have to go back and resolve that situation with Sam, I'm going to learn a lot better than if I wrote a paper about it. Didn't really accomplish anything.
Speaker 2:So I've heard you guys talk a little bit about this in your answers, but I think it might be important to kind of clarify what's the difference between seeking compliance and seeking cooperation from our kids and seeking cooperation from our kids.
Speaker 3:I think this one's hard to distinguish sometimes too, is that you want to be able to do something together instead of feeling like you're exerting power over someone to make them do it. And we have a little bit easier time of that when we think about coworkers or working on a team, but we often don't look at it that way with a kiddo, and so I really want people to do things because it's out of a connection and out of a I want to do the right thing, and not because they're afraid or because I have more power than them or they are free. They're going to have some kind of consequence because of it.
Speaker 4:That's one of the things I, you know, I, when I I I have supervisor staff and I talk to them sometimes because people, like you said, Michelle I think that's a good point is people kind of don't know where the line is. I think sometimes people have good intentions and they want to do you, do things, or let's take away this, or let's ground them for that. And I'm like, well, what did you try asking first? Did you try seeing, try something else to seek cooperation? See if they'll go ask first. Maybe they'll just do what you ask the first time, versus having to resort straight to punishment. Right, that gives everybody a chance to think it through it. I think it still teaches the same way. But I usually tell people hey, try to see cooperation, or the other word Compliance.
Speaker 5:Really a lot of the times. The kids that I worry the most about at ranch are the most compliant kids because they haven't been on our radar. We're usually catching the bigger behavior with the certain kids and so sometimes they kind of fly under and we don't realize until right before they're going to leave that we miss some things, and so I think that's the biggest one is the compliant kids are the ones that worry me the most that we haven't caught it.
Speaker 2:So I think you're right, because their whole lives they've done what they've been told to do and then when they leave us, no one's there to tell them what to do anymore and they're kind of stuck or they go and follow the wrong things. So I think that's a really good point.
Speaker 5:Yeah, they sometimes didn't have a voice when they were younger, and so then they've done what they thought they had to, and so they didn't get to voice what they really needed.
Speaker 2:So here out at Boys Ranch, when it comes to discipline, our approach moves us from the certainty that behavior is simple willful defiance to being curious as to what the need is behind the behavior. Can you guys unpack that statement for me?
Speaker 3:I think it goes with everything we've been talking about is that there's kind of a traditional view that if you're misbehaving, you're doing it on purpose and you're trying to make my life more difficult and you've chosen to do that. And I think what we know is that a lot of times, you know we all do well if we can and when we're not doing well, there's something that's going on that's causing us to not do well, and so trying to look at what's underneath that, what's causing us to not be able to be successful in the situation, so being curious instead of just assuming you know the reason for it.
Speaker 2:All right. So for us, when we're talking about discipline, we base it on kids' neurodevelopment, their relational health and past learning and experiences. Can you talk to me about how each one of these areas impact discipline?
Speaker 3:Oh, that's a lot to cover it is. We mentioned neurodevelopment like it's a real easy, concise, simple topic, but really what we know is that, based on our history of relational experiences and adversity, our brains develop in certain ways that are either more resilient or more vulnerable, and so we know all of our brains are different because all of our histories are different, and so we pay attention to that. The other thing is relational health is a big buffer for us. So you can have a lot of adversity in your life, but if you have good relational health, you're going to be able to weather it better, and if you don't, you're going to struggle more. And so we try to look at all those things, not just the behaviors in front of us.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and it's so hard for a person to look at a kid and, like we talk about all the time, an older kid, mid-teens.
Speaker 4:You expect them to act that way right you expect them to act more, more mature, and then they're not acting that mature and that really confuses adults. It really confuses and that's where I think people think well, they're doing it on purpose, they're doing it, they're rebellious, and which? Yes, sure, some of that is true, but I do believe that it has to do with, like you said earlier, trauma. Their trauma, their templates, all their past experiences, their lack of relational health all compound into a thing. And I also think that you said it's not a perfect science. We say a kid, maybe in placement, is about five years behind. That's a big gap. And then also, you don't know that it's five years. It could be more, it could be less, they could be on par, and so it's hard for caregivers, especially when you're taking care of more than one kiddo, to try to discern that.
Speaker 3:That made me think of how we say they know better. Right, they know better. To know better means that you're able to be thoughtful and conscious of your actions, but we know the more stressed out, more freaked out you get about things, the less you're going to be thoughtful about your intentions or more emotional and reactive about them.
Speaker 4:And that's real fair. And also you've got to consider where the adults are in all this right. What is the adult's template and the adult's relationship, the adult's development? And just because we're all over 18 doesn't mean we're always in the right spot in our world.
Speaker 5:We're 18 doesn't mean we're always in the right spot in our world and I think when they get triggered then it's harder for them to be curious about what's driving the behavior, a lot of the time underneath what's causing it.
Speaker 5:Past experiences, because they have their own template and then they're having to be curious about the kid's behavior and so and our brain likes to feel safe. So it's easier to tell ourselves like they're doing it on purpose, because that's just easier for us to understand Not necessarily because that's what's really happening but it's just easier for us to tell ourselves that they're doing it intentionally.
Speaker 4:Well, yeah, I heard somewhere that our brains are always just trying to create a narrative, always trying to make the story make sense. So why did this kid do this? Well, here's why. It's obvious, right, it's?
Speaker 5:obvious.
Speaker 3:They just want to make me mad right.
Speaker 2:So we often use the iceberg analogy when it comes to talking about discipline. Could you guys walk?
Speaker 4:me through this analogy Behavior is always what we see, the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, the iceberg that sticks out of the ocean, but only about 20% of the icebergs actually at the top, and you can try to deal with that part, the iceberg, the behavior. You can try to deal with it, but as you chop off the top, the bottom keeps coming up, so you're not really taking care of the problem. The problem at the bottom and under the water is the all the stuff you know, all the trauma, all the previous things that have happened in a person's life, and so we just, it's like doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. You're trying to take care of this behavior and you notice nothing ever changes. They keep doing the same thing because we're not dealing with the problem that's under there.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean it's one of my favorite things to use. I said that before we even started. It's one of my favorite things to use with the kids, along with our staff, because really, when an incident happens, it's like trying to break it down and figure out what's really driving it and what needs aren't being met and what's what. What are we missing? Because there's always way more going on and trying to get to the root so that we can meet the needs and actually see the change.
Speaker 3:And we, you know, we talk about how behavior is just communication, and so it's part of being curious as to what's being communicated to us that we have to figure it out, and I think that goes for all of us too.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we think it's just the kids, but it's the same way with adults too, and one of the things that sticks out to me with iceberg analogy is we as adults are often really really good at seeing that behavior right Because it's right out in front of us, but the stuff below the surface is driving that behavior we don't always see. So we can be really good about consequencing the behavior and then be frustrated. That never really fixes the problem. So when it comes to that, how important is it to have a relationship with your kids in regards to discipline?
Speaker 3:I think we all know that. You know, in order to learn from someone, it helps that we have a relationship and you respect them. It's a lot easier to learn and listen to someone that you love and respect than someone who you don't have a relationship with, and so the more connected you are, the more secure your relationship is, the easier discipline and other kinds of things will be to you know as they come along.
Speaker 2:What about the importance of setting appropriate boundaries for kids?
Speaker 5:I mean I love this one just because I think it's physical touch, or even just not wanting to do something. I love kids being allowed to say no because that's really what they need, and maybe they never got that voice prior, or they weren't allowed to say no wherever they were before, and so it just really is allowing them to have the appropriate boundary and giving them that space and respecting it, because they might not have gotten it before.
Speaker 4:And the word appropriate boundaries is the key here, right, because for a toddler, their boundaries got to be way closer to me. Right, it's appropriate for them to kind of move away from me yet come back. And even my young kids, they can go a little further. But is it appropriate for them to leave my side completely? I'm not sure. It just depends on the situation and also in how they act. You know, you got to teach, right, Boundaries are about teaching. Yes, that's okay, no, that's not okay. This situation, that's okay. You know this situation, that's not okay, right. And that goes back to our relationship piece. So I take my grandson out to town with me and you know he's little, so he acts up a little bit and I just kind of, hey, is anyone else doing that here? And he goes, no, okay, that's not what we're supposed to do. Okay, we stand in line and we wait and it's teaching. I got to understand he's little, but I got to start teaching him the boundaries at some point, right, and I understand where he's at in his place.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's such a hard one because it seems like we don't get good examples of good boundaries. We get either at either examples of no boundaries or too much, and so one of the toughest things about being a parent is adjusting on what you allow your kids to do right Just look what Sam's saying. So, when they're younger, being stricter and you know more within their vicinity, and then, as they get older, to lessen those things, so they have more autonomy, and I think people either get at one or the other, but we're typically not good at both, and so to adjust to what is appropriate for their level of functioning and their age is difficult, and I think we all struggle with that somewhat.
Speaker 5:I remember the first time that my son because he doesn't like physical touch that much told someone no to a hug. It was my favorite thing ever, which probably wrecks other parents. But I was like so thrilled, like hey, he doesn't want to, and he voiced that and so I was proud in that moment that he could say no even at two.
Speaker 3:My youngest is the same way. She doesn't like a lot of physical touch and she was sick one time and I was patting her back and she said you're making it a little bit worse, which makes you feel terrible. But then you're also glad that they're able to say what they need and what they don't need.
Speaker 2:One of the things I like about boundaries is that paradoxically, I guess creates safety, like I heard a story just the other day. Someone told me about a new school that was built an elementary school and the playground at first didn't have a fence around it and all the kids huddled real close to the school. They wouldn't go out into the playground. But as soon as they built the fence, then the kids actually went out and started playing on the playground equipment. So I think having healthy boundaries helps kids feel safe. They know where they stand, they know what's allowed, what's not allowed and they can predict it, which makes it easier for them to meet expectations.
Speaker 5:I like that. I almost said that earlier. I think kids like boundaries more than people believe or know, because I think a lot of times when we put boundaries in place with our kids, they'll come back and thank us, and so it just makes me happy that they also respect having that. So that story illustrates that perfectly. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Well, that's how they learn, you know, when I set a boundary, well, like, I have things I've collected, right? And I tell my grandkids because they're young and they're in my house now and hey, this stuff is grandpa stuff, this stuff, right here, we can't play with, these aren't toys, right? And also, I respect their boundaries, right, this is your closet, let's take out your toys, I ask. But I teach them to ask can I sit on your bed? And things like that. And these are my grandkids, right. But I think it's a matter of modeling that respect piece. If I can show them my boundaries and enforce them when I have to, they also learn to do the same thing when I go to their space and I think that's a good way to teach kiddos.
Speaker 2:So it sounds like you have to try and find a balance between enforcing structure and routine while at the same time building and maintaining relationships. So what might be some warning signs that you don't have good structure or boundaries with your kids?
Speaker 3:It seems like, again, going back to it, it seems like we have extremes right. So what happens is we'll let a lot of things go for a really long time and then they'll build up and we'll get really upset about it and we'll give it a really extreme consequence because we've let it build up. And so I think that is hard to figure out when to address things and when to let go, and that a lot of times that takes kind of some self you know assessment, but then also sometimes feedback from whoever's trying to help you parent about what you're struggling with. And so I think, just like we were saying, kids do appreciate structure, but when there isn't relationship, or it's a surprise or it's different than what they're used to, they're going to fight back on that, and so that's always a good indication that things haven't quite gone the way that you wanted them to.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it's finding that balance. We talk about it all the time but trying to guide it right. You want right in the middle between the structure and the nurture, but it's easier said than done and I think it's having an honest conversation with your spouse or your friends like where do I lie on this continuum? Because a lot of times I think I lie towards structure, but my friends and my husband would say, hey, you're the nurturer, and so it's been interesting getting that feedback and allowing for an open conversation about where you lie and then knowing what areas you could probably grow in I think will help.
Speaker 3:It's nice if you have that kind of feedback, because I know for my husband and I when we were raising our kids and they were younger, there'd be times that we would tell them they couldn't do something or we wouldn't allow something. And then when we kind of talked about it, it was more reflexive because that's what we were taught, Not really that we thought it was meaningful and that we needed to enforce it.
Speaker 3:But if we wouldn't have had that kind of communication, we wouldn't have kind of evaluated it and reflected on it and then changed what we were doing to work better for us.
Speaker 2:All right. Thank you all for being disciplined enough to make it through another brain-based parenting podcast with us today and come back next week when we will discuss how to address less significant behaviors with discipline. Until then, remember you might have to loan out your frontal lobes today. Just make sure you remember and get them back.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to Brain-Based Parenting. We hope you enjoyed this show. If you would like more information about Cal Farley's Boys Ranch, are interested in employment, would like information about placing your child, or would like to help us help children by donating to our mission, please visit calfarleyorg. You can find us on all social media platforms by searching for Cal Farley's. Thank you for spending your time with us and have a blessed day.
