Brain Based Parenting
Brain Based Parenting, The Boys Ranch Podcast for families.
We all know how hard being a parent is, and sometimes it feels like there are no good answers to the difficult questions families have when their kids are struggling.
Our goal each week will be to try and answer some of those tough questions utilizing the knowledge, experience, and professional training Cal Farley’s Boys Ranch has to offer.
Contact us: email
podcasts@calfarley.org
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For More Information about Cal Farley's Boys Ranch:
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Music:
"Shine" -Newsboys
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Brain Based Parenting
Counter Aggression: How Power Struggles Break Relationships And What To Do Instead
Ever feel the urge to “match” your child’s intensity and show who’s in charge? That reflex has a name—counteraggression—and it’s quietly wrecking connection at home. We unpack why power struggles feel so tempting, how mirror neurons pull us into escalation, and what it actually takes to set firm, respectful boundaries without losing your cool.
We get practical: the subtle red flags of counteraggression (including sarcasm and the cold shoulder), the pride and fear that justify “teaching a lesson,” and the long-term cost when kids learn to walk on eggshells. You’ll hear simple moves that work under pressure—front-loading your mindset with a mantra, using tag-team handoffs with your partner, stepping away when hijacked, and using curiosity to understand what just changed in the room. We share moments we blew it, why repair matters more than perfection, and a phrase that instantly diffuses baiting: “We’re not talking about that.”
You’ll also learn how to model healthy conflict in everyday life—from a frustrating cashier to a tough work call—because your kids are always watching how you treat people who get it wrong. We talk through sincere apologies that rebuild trust (“I owe you an apology for…”) and why consistent, calm limits beat winning the argument. Expect practical scripts, relatable stories, and a hopeful reset: you can stop the spiral without becoming permissive.
Ready to trade power struggles for steady leadership? Press play, subscribe for more brain-based parenting tools, and share your toughest trigger or go-to de-escalation line in a review. Your story might help another parent find calm today.
Contact:
podcasts@calfarley.org
To Donate:
https://secure.calfarley.org/site/Donation2?3358.donation=form1&df_id=3358&mfc_pref=T
To Apply:
https://apply.workable.com/cal-farleys-boys-ranch/j/25E1226091/
For More Information about Cal Farley's Boys Ranch:
https://www.calfarley.org/
Music:
"Shine" -Newsboys
CCS License No. 9402
Welcome to Brain-Based Parenting, the Boys Ranch podcast for families. We all know how hard being a parent is, and sometimes it feels like there are no good answers to the difficult questions families have when their kids are struggling. Our goal each week will be to try and answer some of those tough questions, utilizing the knowledge, experience, and professional training Cal Farley's Boys Ranch has to offer. Now here is your host, Cal Farley's Staff Development Coordinator, Joshua Sprock.
SPEAKER_05:Hello and welcome. Today we're going to talk about one of the most damaging factors in a relationship with your kids, counteraggression.
SPEAKER_04:To do that, today I'm again joined by Sam Cerna, Assistant Administrator of Residential Communities.
SPEAKER_01:Chloe Hewitt, Youth Programs Administrator.
SPEAKER_02:Mike Wilhelm, Director of Faith-Based Outreach.
SPEAKER_05:All right, let's jump into our question of the day. So what is something really little that sets you off?
SPEAKER_01:When I have told my husband that we what all we have going on for the week, and he remembers none of it and then tells me at the beginning of the day what all we have going on. And we have a calendar to look at.
SPEAKER_04:Mine's dumb. I don't even want to say I might have to change it. But I you know, like sometimes the dog. The dog puts his um fecal manner in places where I'm gonna walk, and I swear he does it on purpose. Outside, not in the house. Outside, I'm going to throw the trash, and there I go, stepping on it. And now I gotta clean my boots.
SPEAKER_01:I don't think that's little.
SPEAKER_02:I think I was gonna say, Chloe. Like, Sam, you're not following directions. Okay. Little matter. That's a huge matter. Yeah. Um, this is not. I guess anything that sets us off then suddenly it becomes a big matter, right? But it's all these online subscriptions that you either subscribe to so easily with all these wonderful promises and the but then to try to get out of it is it's a nightmare. And then some of them you even accidentally end up having. And so I'm getting triggered right now talking about it.
SPEAKER_05:Triggering me talking about I had similar things happen just recently. I think mine is when I my my stuff's always about driving for some reason. But when you go to pass someone that's driving really slow and then they speed up on you as you're trying to get around them, that's and then I I think very not nice things.
SPEAKER_01:That but that is my husband would say the same thing, Josh. Like he literally has to make a comment every time we travel because that's his pet beef. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05:All right. So maybe it'd be handy to define counteraggression. What is what is the what is counteraggression and what are the clear signs a parent is engaging in it?
SPEAKER_01:Well, a lot of times we call that a power struggle here, which means that basically they're escalated, you escalate back, and then it just continues to spiral because you both are trying to win the power. So that's what I would say the counteraggression, that you're both maybe it's you raising your voice, but maybe it's not. Maybe it's both you just trying to win the situation.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, I would define it as person perceived aggression. And now they're counter-attacking with uh more aggression. And the way you know you're in it is typically you are yelling or you are making smart comments.
SPEAKER_02:Or you're you know, you're you know, you're saying mean things or that that's that's a tricky manifestation of that where if it's not shouting, a sarcastic remark is kind of veiled anger, isn't it? It's it's but it's very it's can be disrespectful and it's corrosive to the relationship, but sarcasm could be an another way to if that's being expressed, right?
SPEAKER_04:I heard this in a movie, I don't remember which one, but we play with the toys we're given, right? And some of us aren't big, and some of us can be very sarcastic, and that's very hurtful. And so sometimes when you're feeling a way because somebody has wronged you, you want them to feel the way you feel, and um that's kind of how you know because they're like you usually have this uh elevated heart rate or this. You know when you're mad, I'm gonna I'm gonna hit them in the juggler.
SPEAKER_02:You know, we had this, we we had an intern some years ago that was leading a junior high youth group, and believe it or not, the junior high youth group was misbehaving. I know that comes as a shock to everybody in this room and all the listeners that that could ever possibly happen, right? Yeah. And and and this uh this intern got counteraggressive with the group, all right. Was she was talking to Chaplain Ray about it, and he was kind of trying to help her through it and bring her to some insight. And he said, Hey, what what upset you about that? You know, with the kids. And she said, Well, it just hurts my heart that they're rejecting God. Chaplain Ray, now it's not his first rodeo, and he said, uh, does it really hurt your heart they're rejecting God? Or could it be that it hurts your pride that they're disrespecting you? And and to this young lady's credit, and because Ray is just a safe person that's loving and not counteraggressive, so he wasn't being a smart aleck in that in that with that feedback, just loving. She received it and sought thought for a minute, and she says, you know what? You're right. Um I was it it it hurt my pride that they were disrespecting me. So she was tripping over her pride, and it was really cool that she owned it.
SPEAKER_05:I've heard also from like Dr. Perry and Dr. Purvis talking about what counteraggression is neurobiologically, is we have what are called mirror neurons in our brain. We tend to absorb the emotions of the people who are around us. So if kids are putting off those angry, aggressive emotions, our mirror neurons like to reflect that back to them. So it's kind of a natural process. They get angry and we soak that up so we get angry right back. So, what makes counteraggression different then from like healthy discipline or just setting firm boundaries?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think Sam said it too. Like basically that you're his it's either that you're responding by yelling or you're being sarcastic or making comments. It's almost degrading, right, in some ways. Because your intention is, I'm gonna hurt you back because you're hurting me, right? I'm gonna attack back. And it could be just that what you're talking about, Josh, that it's mirroring it because it's really we naturally kind of gravitate. Okay, I'm frustrated, you're frustrated, now we're just gonna have this situation out. The healthy discipline in setting boundaries is I I see that you're frustrated. The answer is still no, right? That I'm remaining calm, I'm setting the firm boundary and being healthy, but I'm not escalating the situation. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they're automatically just gonna stop the behavior because they still want what they want. So, but it does mean that you are being firm about what you're saying.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and I think it's also healthier to set boundaries because well, you nobody really wins the power struggle. At the end, you know, especially if you're working with children, you got a limit to how high and how far you can go. And there's consequences that an adult who's rational, we can only go so far. So there's really no point to the battle. I mean, sometimes you can win it, but at the end, what did you lose more? Right? When I set healthy boundaries, I'm not arguing with you. This is what's it is, and here's where I'm at.
SPEAKER_02:And I've done and and I have done that before. You know, won a battle and lost the war, Sam, where you know, with our boys when they were growing up or with other kids that worked with, where you just simply, well, I'm the big person, I'm the old person, therefore, and and then to unlovingly just have take control and not help work through the situation in a respectful way. Okay, I got my way in that moment, but it really strains a relationship and it extinguishes joy, and you can just kind of start to feel more distance in the relationship and more chill and less trust, right? So yeah, you can win the battle and lose the war with this.
SPEAKER_01:We had an adolescent boy that would really kind of come at the staff when I was supervising that home directly, come at the staff every day and just be like, You didn't do what you were telling me I was gonna do, what you were gonna do. And that's how he would start conversations. And I, and so the staff would try to have a conversation with him, but it would continue to escalate. And so every time I was over there, I would say, Hey, we're not gonna talk like that. So when you're ready to have a conversation, we can do it calmly and collectively. But the way that you're speaking to me right now is not okay. And come back when you're ready to be calm. And he would come back and we would do it. But it was always, this is my firm boundary, you're not gonna speak like that to her or me. And then we and he would come back 20 minutes or 30 minutes and do it the right way. But it was a lot of resetting him and getting him to understand.
SPEAKER_02:That's good. And Chloe, you just have this natural gift though of meeting people and when they're at their worst, and you just there's no question that you love people that are in front of you. No, no, really, everybody's everybody's gifted different ways, but you're one of those people that you can say even some hard things, and there's no question in the midst of that that you really care for that person. Not everybody's graced that way. No, no, and not seriously. And some of us really have to cultivate that or do a lot of this check-in, like you know, take a breath and have a that little breath prayer, be aware of, oh, I'm hijacked right now, because they they can sense it no matter how well I craft the words, whatever volume I choose for my voice, they can smell it. If I'm hijacked and I don't like them right now, and they're just an object that I'm it's an annoyance or something that's threatening my need for control, it's just not gonna go well, right? And some of us have a stronger natural need for control than others. Yep. And if we and whenever control is frustrated, anger tends to be the response, right? And it might not be some people it just explodes in the room, other people just it simmers and they're quiet and it's and they're bitter or resentful, but you can smell it even if they're even if it's not exploding in the room. So those of us that have a stronger need for control, this is uh this is more of a challenge than than with others, right?
SPEAKER_05:So why is counteraggression so damaging to a parent-child relationship?
SPEAKER_04:This is the way I see conflict in that manner. When I engage with a especially with a child with a child, and I act like them, then I am them, right? My job is to set a better example. My cause we all we all say, hey, I'm here to teach my kids, I gotta prepare them for adulthood, right? Yeah, sure. What kind of adulthood do I want to prepare them for? If I act like them, now I'm they they're gonna treat me like them. So I want to take a try to take the high road and like you know, the example Chloe gave earlier. Hey, that's that's just this is where it's at. We're we're not you can you're free to disagree, but but yeah, I'm just not gonna argue about that right now, right? This is the this is what I've said for you. And it it's it's healthier that way because I don't I'm not I'm not creating more pain. I've just stopped it. They they can just disagree, but I haven't said anything hurtful anymore because I'm not them. Their friends can talk to them that way. They have plenty of buddies and bullies to deal with at school. They don't need me to do that same thing. Plus, if I act like them, they're gonna believe I'm them and then they're gonna be disrespectful to me. I've just established that adults are disrespectful. You have plenty of other adults to do that. It doesn't have to be me.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I think it's so powerful because we're all still learning too, right? And so I love Mike that you said some of us tend to have a higher need for control. I feel like my husband wouldn't mind me saying that, but he he struggles with that. And you know, it could be his ex-military background, it could be just his upbringing. One last night, I when I got home from the flight, he's telling me about a situation with our son, and and he was real upset and he was getting on to his sister and not being kind with his words. And so my husband said, You need to go to your room and do your homework in there, and we're gonna talk about it later. And then he went in there and followed up 15 minutes later, and our son said, I'm still not ready to talk to you. And he said, Okay. And he went back 20 minutes later and then they had a conversation. But I said to my husband last night, wow, that was really remarkable. Because, and not that I was even just proud of our son, I was proud of him because his normal inclination is, you're gonna do it and you're gonna be nice, and I want you to do it right now, right? And he and for him to say that, and so it's always important for us to know where we lie. But I just was so impressed that he took it upon himself to say, hey, I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna keep following up. And so you're not always gonna get it right. And sometimes you are gonna be counteraggressive, but it again, it's about that repair, but it's also about learning from previous stuff because we have our own stuff, and maybe our parents handled it with counteraggression every time. And so we're trying to break that kind of we're trying to break that vow, right? Like we don't want to be like that, and so it takes time.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that that's uh and we talk about this and probably can mention this in many episodes, if not all. We are gonna blow it sometimes, and sometimes we're gonna be counteraggressive. Well, welcome to the human race. But then that's always an opportunity to follow up and apologize. Bad as that counteraggressive moment is with that child, it could be damaging. Those apologies are powerful if they're really done sincerely and not. And even not just saying, hey, I'm sorry, but I I like the word, I want to apologize for, I think it's more powerful, and then spell it right out, say it instead of just hey, I'm sorry. It almost makes it about me and how I'm feeling. But I I I owe you an apology for and then say it. And so there's always a chance to restore, right?
SPEAKER_05:So what emotional triggers most commonly push parents into counteraggressive reactions? Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I I'm curious if it really depends on your own upbringing or even some of your cherished beliefs is what kind of Jackson, what my so cherished belief being, what in me do I believe is internally the right thing? And if you violate that cherished belief that I have, then you're gonna see me get upset. So for me, when I lead my staff, if the kids or other staff are being disrespectful to them, that's a cherished belief. You can disrespect me all day. The moment you disrespect my staff, I'm gonna, you're gonna trigger an emotional response out of me, right? And so knowing that we all have those emotional triggers, and for my husband and for me, they look different. It can kind of be a little bit of everything. Can it be lying? Can it be stealing? Can it be not listening the first time? You know, it just depends on where you're at in that continuum, is what I think.
SPEAKER_02:This from a chaplain perspective, when we talk about this in the Cal Farley training room, when you're talking about trying to really help foster the spiritual growth of your child and uh faith, you know, talking about Christian faith formation, a cherished belief for a Christian parent is gonna be the things they believe about God. And boy, once that child ever maybe they're resisting going to church or they're questioning some things that you believe about uh your faith, or what or maybe sometimes it's even just in a bad moment and they're frustrated, they're just throwing stuff to see what sticks, and they know that's gonna push your button. Yep. Always caution our new staff, and I would say this to our listeners don't take the bait there and become counteraggressive because not only is it gonna erode your relationship with your child, but it really is gonna interrupt their their faith formation because they need to be able to express those things that sometimes might step on some of your cherished values. Trust me, God doesn't need you as a defense lawyer. He's gonna, okay, he's gonna hold up just fine to with the kids' questions, right? But if I get, if I feel some offense and or counteraggressive, boy, they're not gonna trust me with any more of those questions, and it really is gonna impede their their faith development. So it's kind of like that intern I was talking about earlier. We we tend to would frame that in like, well, it just hurts my heart. They're rejecting God, and it's like, yeah, or maybe it's just really hurting your pride that they're they're questioning something that's important to you, right?
SPEAKER_05:So how important do you think it is to know what your triggers are then?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I think you should know them. And I think you should be open with, you know, if you're if you're married, be open with your spouse. If you're not married, then having, if you're a single parent, have somebody that you trust that you feel like you can tell those triggers to. Because one of the things I was gonna say that's really powerful is when you do go back and repair or you have a loving relationship, that if Sam's telling me a story, and we do this now with staff and kids, Sam and I will bounce off of each other and say, like, well, do you think it's this? Or do you think maybe you were had other things going on, right? But to have a safe enough space that someone can point out to you, hey, that's normally an emotional trigger, or that normally is a hot button for you, that they can point it out to you so that you're more aware of it too.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it gives you it gives you a lot more control, you know, because when you lose control, that creates more fear for you, right? Because there is consequences to losing control. And sometimes those are those long-term effects that we talked about, relationships with the people you care about long term. I I said this to somebody, maybe Josh, me and Josh talk a lot. And I said this that parents have an immense amount of power, similar to like Chloe and I, right? We're in kind of high, high-level positions here. Uh, one of the things I realized is when I talk to people, I'm just Sam. But when I talk to people who work for me, I'm not just Sam. What I say and what I think is a throwaway line is darn near gospel, and they remember the things you say. And it and that's the same thing with a child, an adult. Like I said, we said this earlier, children don't have the backstory to all your decisions. But when you say something and it's hurtful, they remember those things. They form life based on those things you say. So it's really important for us to know that about ourselves. When I'm I know the things that set me off, and we work on those things. So because also other people learn what sets you off, and they can control you through those actions, right? Kids can do it too. They want to hurt your feelings, you know. And for teachers, house parents, whatever, whatever, just parents. If the kids mad at you, they're gonna throw, they're gonna push that button because it makes you lose control and it pretty much ends this conversation. Well, when they can't push that button and you can stay calm, you have more control, and you don't feel bad afterwards. You know, you don't feel bad when you do it, right? You know you're you're just hey, right now we're not doing it. I can always say, like Mike said earlier, I can go make it right, but what if I could just not do it in the first place and I can gain enough control? And some of that is a lot of that self-exploration about knowing yourself and knowing, hey, I didn't go well last time. What happened? What happened? What set me off, you know?
SPEAKER_05:So, how does stress, exhaustion, or past trauma influence a parent's tendency to escalate a situation?
SPEAKER_01:Well, we tend to parent the way that was modeled for us, and so I think knowing, being aware of some of that past trauma influence of your own parents, and not in a bad way, but my dad was kind of a yeller, and so sometimes when I'm trying to get the kids out of the house, I my my kids will be like, You're yelling, and I'm like, Oh, I am yelling. But you don't realize it because it's kind of a natural tendency. So you kind of just get used to it. Stress and exhaustion, man, I feel like that hits me on every forefront, not even just on my parenting. I think it interactions with my with my others, or even just my capacity to take and handle simple things like I don't making my grocery lift list whenever I'm stressed and exhausted is hard for me. So I think that that does affect, and it and and you're gonna get a sharper response from me, or I'm gonna almost avoid some of it.
SPEAKER_04:We walk around life with a cup of water, all the things that you know let me make the example. Nobody likes spilled liquids. So we made an example of that. Nobody likes spilled liquids. You got a cup of water and that thing fills up, it's gonna overflow, right? You only have so much capacity, right? You gotta drink some of that water, you gotta put it here, water the grass, whatever you do with it. But if you these things just stack up on us every, every day. And there's just so much of it, especially when you're a parent of multiple children and you're you both of you work and or you got the life problems, those things all stack up, and you're not just worried about your kids, you're worried about all the things and are the lights gonna be on today, or you know, I got the disconnect note, you know, all these things that happen to you that you just sometimes cannot control. And so, yeah, so when you're when your cup is full, it don't take but a drop to make that thing break or go over, and then your emotions come out, and then everybody who is around you is who gets it.
SPEAKER_05:So then why do parents sometimes feel justified in matching a child's intensity? And why does this usually backfire?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think in the moment you think, well, they deserve it. I mean, a little bit because you start to feel like, well, you're gonna give it to me, I can give it right back, right? But what's hard is it always backfires because typically all the shame and guilt start kind of going in and you start thinking, why did I respond that way? So I think it backfires with you and for the kid. Maybe next time they don't bring the situation to you because they they don't want a strong response, but also maybe it backfires on you because you start to feel guilty about how you responded.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, some of it just be old-fashioned pride too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. How dare, you know, how dare I I'm the adult, they're the child, all I've done for them, whatever. This is just all wrong. How dare they? And that is pride, uh, alive and well. And and boy, oh boy, that's uh that's something we trip over daily, don't we?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, my mine was if I don't handle this now, they're gonna think they can do this all the time. Yeah. And so I gotta squash this.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, then that is a justification. Yeah, you talk about justification, and sure enough, that's one right there. Right.
SPEAKER_04:Backfires every time. I got a limit. I only can go so far, and then bad things happen, you know?
SPEAKER_02:This you could dress it up a lot of different ways, can't you? This counteraggression justify it for sure. But Chloe, I like yours uh when the kids point out that uh mom, you're yelling. And usually the most parents I know, you scream even louder, I'm not yelling, right? Or you want to hear me yell?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I'm like, no, I am, I am. Yeah, I am.
SPEAKER_05:It gets comical. So, what does this counteraggression do to a child's sense of safety and ability to trust their parent?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think if you give them the predictability that you're always going to respond counteraggressively, they're gonna stop coming to you or bringing you issues because none of us want to be responded that way. Think about a boss that's always counteraggressive or a friend. You're gonna immediately kind of distance yourself from them because you don't want that interaction every day. So I think that builds distrust, but it also builds like avoidance.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, everybody's walking on eggshells, right? Which that's a stressful environment for everybody, right? The anxiety that that produces if you're always worried that someone's gonna you're gonna set somebody off. Something you didn't mention, Josh, but would you say we're we're talking about counter-aggressive, but that which can also be counter-passive aggressive. Yeah, right. Because I've been around some people before that if they are offended, they're counter-passive aggressive, you know, a parent that's gonna withdraw affection, eye contact, you know, that give you the cold shoulder, cold treatment. So that that's a that that's an unpleasant punishment in and of itself, right? And parents can do that and feel like they're being composed and taking good care of their child. I'm not a yeller, but uh, that can be pretty cruel, don't you think?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think it's almost we've talked about that. And it's funny, I just had this conversation with my dad. I almost think that's a harder thing to navigate because it's not in your face, right? I would almost prefer the counteraggressive just because it's in my face. And yeah, so I do think that's a really good point, Mike.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I want to change my first answer to the first question you asked was that is my trigger, right there. It's when people do not talk or they stop talking to you. And they give you the they give you the cold shoulder. I mean, that's so disrespectful. And I understand, you know, uh knowing what I know now, I understand it's it's a safety mechanism for other people. They they don't want to be confrontational or they're afraid to have this discussion or whatever needs to come out of what's happening, or they're just mad at you.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And I'm gonna show them they're gonna learn that I'm not with them and what they can do without me. Whatever it is, it's right. Aggressive is the same. But that really does there's something for me about somebody not willing to have a conversation and work it out because I don't want to walk and be at home or at work or anywhere and we're just not talking. Yep. You know, it it it doesn't really solve anything.
SPEAKER_02:But boy, that's a tough that that's a that's a tough one for a a child, like a pre-adolescent child to navigate if that parent is you know is counter passive aggressive. I agree. With withdraw emotion, affection, and eye contact. That's a that's a that's a horrible punishment.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's like a that that is like a a a creeping cancer. You know, it it it affects so long term. It's almost worse than yelling, really, yeah to just give nothing back.
SPEAKER_02:And I think the studies do show that actually, don't they?
SPEAKER_00:That's what I've heard.
SPEAKER_02:That a chaotic screaming home, and not I'm not recommending that, but strangely that that that is probably a less of a ha I mean, it's a it's bad for that child to navigate, but even worse is it'd be that one that withdraws affection, eye contact, attention. Yeah. That's way where, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:One of the things Dr. Daniel Siegel talks about, he says they're both bad. But what the reason is what happens is our brains are wired when we're children especially to go to our caregiver when we're scared and when we're feeling discomforted. But when we go to that person who is the actual source of our the source of the unsafety or aggression, it causes our brains to fragment and short circuit because the source of the aggression is our comforter, and our brains don't understand how to navigate that. And uh that's really uh how a lot of our dissociative abilities and stuff like that happen because those connections of brains start to fragment. It's kind of pretty sad, really.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:But also considered what that what you're just saying, if if they can't come to me, they're gonna find somebody to go to. And you know, that could lead to you know, gangs, other adults who maybe are unhealthy. Sometimes we do find great adults, don't get me wrong. I mean, they they find great adults that are gonna take care of them, but yeah, negative peers and all that, you get different consequences. They can't come into you, they're gonna go, they're gonna find that where they need it for.
SPEAKER_05:So, how does growing up with counteraggressive parenting shape the way a child children eventually handle conflict?
SPEAKER_01:Well, the way we model is what they believe is right. So their reaction might be to always be counteraggressive. But the problem with that is that can get them losing jobs, having a difficulty keeping peer relationships, romantic relationships, because not everybody's wired to understand that. And you know, I always found it interesting. My parents were raised differently, and and same with my husband, and we recently talked about this in one of our small groups about marriage. I was raised to talk everything through. My husband was raised that if you're mad, you just never speak about it and you move on eventually. And when we met as a couple, we're doing a marriage series, and they and that was almost every couple was the same way. One of us had family that would talk through it, and the other one would have one that didn't. And so the reality is if that's your response, you might get with somebody that doesn't know how to deal with it. And so you've got to find a medium. But that is how you learn how to handle conflict, or you might be avoidant because you don't want to be like that.
SPEAKER_04:I yeah, and I agree with you, Chloe. What you see is what you do. And the hard lesson when I uh turned turned 18 about hey, that's not how adults handle things was difficult. You know, I my my household was a little bit yelly. You know, my mom was completely in charge of things. And you know what she meant well and everything, but that's how I thought people handle conflict. Now I have other family too, and I saw some things and I thought this is normal. So, you know, I tell people all the time conflict doesn't really bother me because it's something I grew up with around and everything, right? And that that kind of shapes my perception of the world. Then I get into the workforce. Well, the well, first I go to the military, which infantry. Hey, that's that's perfect for me, right? Infantry, go do the hard things, go shoot guns and all that stuff. Well, then then I get into the workforce, the regular workforce. And luckily, I I was so fortunate to have a good mentor. You know, first time I lost my my mind, you know, they said, hey, you can't act like that and work here. And I, what? That's how we adults solve problems. No, it's not how adults solve problems, Sam. You know, me, 19-year-old, 20-year-old trying to figure things out. Thank goodness I had a patient mentor that told me, hey, that's not the way men act. It opened my mind, and then I met a nice lady who my other my another mentor of mine taught me how to serve people, taught me how to, you know, do all kinds of things. So it's it's interesting that in my the way your mindset is shaped. This is how I defend myself, this is how I protect my family, this is me. And it's not not doesn't work over here. So you have to almost acquire a whole new skill set. And not everybody gets that lucky, right? That somebody had the patience to teach.
SPEAKER_02:I was thinking about Jesus in the garden before his arrest. Of course, Peter, famous for pulling his sword out. Jesus said, put your sword back in its place, for all who take hold of the sword will die by the sword. Yeah, Jesus faced a lot of opposition that was uh true offenses that would definitely definitely generate counteraggression. And he continually said no to that.
SPEAKER_05:In what ways does counteraggression affect long-term adult child relationships, especially when kids grow up and distance themselves?
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Powell You know, I think you see that they don't go around as much. We kind of have a little bit of that situation in in some of our extended family, and we live six hours from them, and and we constantly every time we go and we see it, and then there's difficulty every time we visit, we're always grateful that there is some distance there because it's not always a healthy relationship. And so I think you see a lot of distance, and I think you see that they don't want to be in that environment, and so they will purposely create distance so that they aren't having to re-occur all the time.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, sometimes kids are taught that hey, this relationship doesn't matter. Compliance matters, doing the right thing matters, making money matters. You know, everything you like said, everything we we do as adults really does have a consequence, you know, and you don't really see you can't really see it until after you're done with the work, after your kids are out of the house. That's when you know, you know. Unfortunately, sometimes, you know, you we have other priorities as adults and we're trying to do but it specifically with passive aggression, yeah. I mean, there's it's difficult to maintain a relationship, especially if you've created so much pain. Yeah. I've seen a lot of my family members, they just have so much pain. I love their family, but they just can't be around them. You you you you just mentioned that with your extended family, you know. I've seen family members that just don't talk. They we only meet at holidays and that's it. Or you got the black sheep of the family, you know, because they're just so different. And when, you know, it's interesting because you know, no learning the things I learned here at Cal Farley's, you know, and knowing the things I know about these people, my cousins, things like that, you know. No offense to that they're probably not listening, but you know, I know some things that happened to them in their life, and I know what trauma created. I mean, that's not all their fault. I mean, they're kids, I mean they they got what they got, and unfortunately, it it they didn't create a good path for them as an adult. And that's what the the advantage of something like this is, right? Uh, people like us who maybe have lived it, some of us who are in it, people that have the opportunity, listeners that have the opportunity to if you're hopefully still a young parent or maybe in the middle of raising some teenagers, you can always do something different. The the whole trick is just knowing right now that, hey, you're doing the best you can, but there's things you can do different, which I think we're gonna talk some more about.
SPEAKER_02:Sure. Be intentional. That one of the really damaging things that will manifest with a family if if that family's practicing counteraggression, okay, if that's what I'm doing as a parent and I'm just don't have good awareness about it, everybody's gonna pick up on that. And what you'll end up with is how people are gonna function, especially if that group has to get in a room together, you scapegoat. Okay, that that's the fruit of this is that if you don't kind of take ownership of your inner stuff, you're triggered, you have this anger. It's gotta go somewhere. And the way that relationships kind of be able to function, and it's not a healthy at all, find a third thing or person to pin it on, it'll be manifest in just some nasty, like you know, gossip, blaming, and it's just a poisonous way to live. But that's gonna be something that I I've noticed that will will come out of this if if it's unchecked.
SPEAKER_01:I agree with that. I do think that that occurs. And so I think just being aware of it and again trying to be intentional about what the interactions are gonna look like, come up with a plan, it and always have good boundaries in place. I think if you feel like there is some strife or aggression, counteraggression, or passive aggressive. One of the things I'm curious, Mike, how you would say really early on, parenting kind of you know shows you all your weaknesses. And so early on, I started putting it on my prayer list to be intentional about my parenting, and then when I get it wrong, talking about it with God and trying to. And so I do think that there's a lot of benefit at even when I'm in my right or I'm trying to do the right thing, just to constantly put that in my prayer because it's a difficult thing and it and it says a lot about us, and then sometimes we have to work through our own stuff because we realize it really is a trigger as why I'm responding that way.
SPEAKER_02:And so And like Sam says, it doesn't have to be that way, right? That's the hopeful positive thing. And the whole reason we would even do a podcast, right? Is that it doesn't we don't have to settle for that, and there's some intentional things we can do. We're not gonna be perfect in our execution, but just to start to cultivate some awareness and we don't have to stay stuck in that rut, right?
SPEAKER_05:Right. So then what are some practical strategies to help parents stay regulated and calm during those heated moments?
SPEAKER_04:You know, we we we have a technique we learn here, and I I used to raise I raised nine, ten little girls at a time here. And as I'm going to deal with some situation, I got called to the school and I don't want to be there. I remember marching up, marching up those stairs saying, calm aware, respectful. Calma we're respectful. Remember your training, right? Fortunately, I'm in a professional capacity here and I and I've gotten some training. Yeah. So I had a bit of an advantage there because when I don't handle things right, things don't go my way. It it just doesn't go my way. Never, ever. I told Josh the other day, I'm always the bad guy when I lose my cool. I'm always the bad guy. Like I ain't maybe because I'm I maybe I'm more volatile or I get louder, whatever it is. Somehow I feel like I always get the short end of the stick here. So I don't want to do that. Right? I don't I don't want to do that. So me and me and a friend of mine, we got called to um a situation where there's this kid just yelling, losing their mind, right? And I sat in the car and I put my hands in a stairwell and say, calm oil respect. He's like, What are you doing? Prepping, man. Like I'm prepping because I'm not I'm not good right now. We're we gotta come in here and deal with whatever this is. Calm way of respect. And I walk in there and just defuse it. People think it's magical. It's not magic, it's just preparing yourself to act right. Yes, right.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I think that's so true. And I think one of the things I think when you have a spouse that we tag in and out a little bit, which we talk about that here at Ranch as well. So being aware, um, and not necessarily, so for us at our house, it's a let me put my hand on you, or or I just say his name. Right? Because I'm not, I don't want to say, hey, like you're losing it, because right? Like I'm in front of the kids and and so I'm trying to like give you a signal that like, hey, I think I need to type over or you need to take a minute, but not in a disrespectful way, because it is again, we talk about this all the time when we talk about training people that if if you come at me when I'm already frustrated, then I'm gonna see you as a threat, right? So I have to be very careful about how I approach that situation. And and you know, I think recognizing it in ourselves. So Sam's talking about pre pre-front loading if he knows this he's going into a situation, but also being aware if you know you are getting heightened. Be aware enough to maybe just step away.
SPEAKER_02:I have found that I I need to not take myself so seriously. That's helpful. And to be able to laugh at myself, we had Josh, you might have to censor part of this story, okay? Like with a beep or something. This is not a very preacherly word I'm gonna use, but we took kids to a church camp years ago. We had a young boy, what one of my first years as chaplain here, so about 20 years ago, a little freckle-faced boy that was always angry, never, you know, every thing was ever always every somebody else's fault, right? We're on our way to camp. He had some church camp spending money that he totally wasted at the truck stop on junk. We get to uh this is on the way to camp. We get to camp. They're having the first night of worship, altar call, and just all this wonderful hugging and praying going on. He comes up to me, he says, Hey, chaplain Wilhelm, uh, my money got stolen. Lie. It was a lie. Okay. My money got stolen, and and uh, would you buy me a coke? I looked at him and he's uh he's in sixth grade. I said, Well, I'll just call Johnny. I said, uh, you know, I there's a lot of things I'll do for you. If I've decided a long time ago I'm not gonna uh give my little young friends money because then if I did it for you, it wouldn't be fair to this kid over here. I went into this nice long little talk, you know, and got done. And he's looking up at me the whole time, listening. I thought, well, that went pretty well. He said, I got done, he said, Chaplain Wilhelm? I said, Yeah, he said, You suck. And and that just flew all over me. I thought, you're you're little, I'm big, you're in sixth grade, I'm the adult. You cannot say that. And I was so hijacked by God's grace in that moment, I suddenly saw how ridiculous I was, laughed at myself, and it just freed everything up. Now, that doesn't mean that it was okay for him to lie and to you know say that to the chaplain or whatever. It was not not to say to be permissive about it, but sometimes it's helpful. Just don't take yourself too seriously. And some of these things are more absurd than we would like to admit, right?
SPEAKER_05:So, how can curiosity rather than control diffuse a situation where counteraggression would normally take over?
SPEAKER_04:Well, I want to I want to go with Duo Mike just said. Yeah. Mike at that moment wasn't real curious, right? And then that's and that's the truth, right? We we generally are not curious. And I'll say this, Chloe, uh, or somebody just repeated what I said. When I'm front loaded and I know something's coming, I can prepare all day. That's a beautiful thing. I'm at my best when I can prepare for my situations. Anybody who knows me knows I go around preparing for all the eventualities. What I can't prepare for is when somebody does something like that, makes a statement out of left field, and you're going, huh? And then your pride takes a hit. And I told Josh I got the little guys on my shoulders. They don't talk nice sometimes, but I I do, hey, what do you mean? How dare you, right? And then how dare you? You the thing you want to do, right? Is lose your cool. The only, the only so anyway, being curious is the answer, right? Like, whoa, what just happened? You know, it's one of the things I learned to say, what happen what just happened? What am I missing? And start there.
SPEAKER_01:I will say one of the things that I I'm curious if Sam will agree, but sometimes if I'm frustrated about a situation, Sam's usually not, and vice versa. And so we will go together because for the most part, one of us is calm. And that helps if one of us, if genuinely I'll say, Hey, I want you to come with me, I because I'm upset about this. And it helps us be calm, one of us. And it really does help de-escalate the situation. Because if I do start to feel frustrated, I can let him take over the conversation.
SPEAKER_04:You know, the beauty of that too is we'll bounce off each other. You know, we'll I'll say, uh, hey, did I handle that okay? Was I rude or disrespectful in any manner? Or she'll say, Hey, what I what did I what did I say? Or you know, I mean, so we it's it's neat because we can critique each other also. Now, again, we're in a professional capacity, but I imagine that you know adults can do that together. Hey, what did you see? Did you see some body language shift there? Did you see it's really cool to be kind of an in an investigator of yourselves. Yes, right? How did how did we handle that well? Like, I don't I don't know, right?
SPEAKER_02:Both of you have have you been and and Josh, you you and April house parented for a a stretch as well. And then you you you raised and are still raising a teenager and live to tell the tale, at least to this point. Have you had kids? You know, of course, yours are pretty small right now, Chloe, yours at home, but but of the kids here at Boys Ranch and you've been caseworker? That really found a button and pushed it. Okay, it pushed your button. Well, yeah. It caught you flat-footed. Say like the thing you couldn't have prepared for and just caught you flat-footed. 100%.
SPEAKER_04:Kids and adults. I mean, everybody can do it. You know, one of my uh mentors, I had lost my cool on a staff one time, and I'm not very proud of that. You know, it's probably one of my worst interactions ever with an adult, you know. And I don't know, I mean, really, because that I think the person thinking about it now, I think the person hit a hot button for me. Hit a hot button, talked about my how I am as a father or something. I don't nothing related to the conversation. I lost my lost it. Basically kicked the person I'm off. Of course, I had there's some consequences to that, right? And I went and talked to my boss, and you know what she what she told me was this Sam, you just gotta learn to say we're not talking about that. Interestingly enough, a couple of years later, I'm in a conversation with a with a gentleman, and I'm not even doing the talking. My one of the person I brought with me is doing the talking, and the man decides we had some conversation before. I really liked him actually, but he had some ammunition that he knew he could use, and he he uh basically said something to the effect my word wasn't good or something like that. Clearly a hot button topic. I'm like, oh this guy. So the cool the thing is my emotions did trigger, right? It did. Oh, how how dare he talk, you know, say that you know he's basically questioning my manhood or whatever, right? And I just looked at him and said, Hey, we're not we're not here to talk about that. What we're not here to talk about, no, no, sir. He's got everything that we need to talk about today. Completely diffused it, right? Which is the question, right? When you can remain calm in a situation, you literally take all their ammunition, they can fire them shots all day long. As long as I don't let it pierce, like Superman. If I don't let them pierce me, they don't pierce they. I just gonna let it roll off. Because what I'm thinking is they must be really hurting right now to be doing this, especially if it's your child or somebody you really care about. They must be really in pain if I'm the one receiving this. Sometimes it is of my thing. I'm giving a consequence or I'm doing something, whatever. Sometimes maybe it's deserved or whatever. I don't, but really, if I can just keep myself calm, one is the situation doesn't go as long. I'm not fighting anymore. Let's just get through this. And I don't feel bad at the end of the day. That, after that first conversation, I felt terrible, and I still do. After that second conversation I described, I didn't feel bad. When it was over, it was over. And I don't have anything to feel bad. In fact, that man texted me not too long ago, told me I'm a good guy. Right, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:And that was probably on one of his worst days of life, right? This this thing about curiosity diffusing a situation, I find it absolutely necessary. Now, like I said earlier, you know, some people are graced with a temperament that just really just does so well naturally in these difficult situations. I don't have one of those by nature. But to be curious about my inner condition in that moment, that's where awareness happens. It's like, how am I feeling right now? Now, oh, I am angry, or my breathing is really shallow, or my chest is tight. This is real quick check-in, uh-huh. And then from there, just to so owning my stuff instead of blaming someone else for how I'm feeling right now, but owning it. Okay, I'm I'm angry. And just in that little micro moment, and then just let that flow upwards, and okay, God help me here right now. And it's just a little quickie prayerful moment, but it lets me be composed, just kind of going back to what Chloe and you and Sam both are saying, so that then I could be loving and how I respond rather than react.
SPEAKER_05:How can parents model healthy conflict resolution with their children without escalating?
SPEAKER_04:Well, there's lots of parts to conflict resolution, right? The win-win situations, seeing the other people's perspective. There's tons of tons of things that you can do. Not just when you're dealing with your child, when you're dealing with other people, things like that. Everything we do is modeling. And when we do get the chance to interact with them, remembering that, like, hey, is there something here that we could both come out of here feeling okay, or things like that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I recently had a situation where it was actually a friend at work and my daughter was with us. She was escalated about something with work, and I didn't recognize this. But we got in the car and she asked me, she said, Mama, why was she yelling at you the whole time? And you were just calm, but she was yelling the whole time at you. And I said, Well, baby, she wasn't mad at me. She was mad at the situation at work and she was talking to me about it, but I'm sure she didn't even recognize she was yelling. And so sometimes when we're frustrated, we talk louder. But it was funny because I mean, I didn't even recognize that she was heated, and and my daughter picked up on it because she knows both of us so well. And so I think again, they're going to model healthy conflict resolution by how we approach other people. I talked a little bit about the plane situation. If I had escalated when the flight attendant spilled all this drinks on me, then that could have escalated the situation. But my daughter, if she had been with me or my son, would have recognized that's how you treat someone when they make a mistake, right? And so they're watching every interaction I have with the cashier. If the cashier's rude to me, or if the cashier's having a great day, or if they're crying, you know, everything they're attuned to how we respond to people and how we respond is how they will respond.
SPEAKER_02:Very good friend of mine. I hope I'm not going off on too big of a tangent here, but just a great friend, great Christian role model to me, and just had this crazy radical faith in the Lord Jesus. And they were at a restaurant, he and his wife, and they were raising, oh, what was it, six or seven kids, you know. So they really had their hands full, and I'm sure their budget was tight. A young, young couple. They had the worst waitress on planet earth that day. Okay. Rude, not attentive, didn't care about getting their order right. And it's just like almost like a sitcom episode or something. Like, how bad could this be? Towards the end of that meal, it was so bad. And my friend said to his wife, said, Jenny, I just, I don't know what's going on with that waitress, but I just feel that the Lord wants us. I he had like$250 in his wall, cash. He said, I think we're supposed to give her that money. Well, his wife, she rolls her eyes and, oh, great. It's then, you know, well, if you think the Lord's telling you, you have to do it. Okay, so she was put out about it, but if okay, you're gonna have to follow through on this. So that's how they were, right? Leaves that tip. Before they got in their car, that waitress comes running out in the parking lot and she is bawling her eyes out. And she said, Right now they're ready to turn power off at our home. I couldn't pay the electric bill, and this covers that electric bill. And she says, Thank you. Well, that shows I mean, just shows how okay, how easy it would have been one to be counteraggressive, even just in a proper way. We're not gonna tip her much because she didn't, you know, don't tip her at all. But instead, they I don't know that they were curious. Yeah, there was more going on than met the eye, right?
SPEAKER_01:That's right. 100%.
SPEAKER_05:So, what steps can parents take to repair trust after counteraggression has harmed the relationship?
SPEAKER_01:You know, I think stepping back, explaining the situation as much as you can, right? Like you don't want to overshare, but you want to explain, like I've told my kids they had a bad day at work, and mom responded, not her best self. And I'm just want to say I'm sorry for saying this specific thing, you know, being very specific. You know, I think Mike said that earlier, you say I apologize for specifically, right? Like, and so just owning it when you are, and that teaches them that to to learn how to repair too, because they're gonna mess up sometimes and they're gonna raise their voice and they're gonna get it wrong, but they're also gonna see, hey, I still want to try and do the right thing.
SPEAKER_04:Well, it's like a you know, atonement. You gotta apologize and try to do better, right? You know, because if we keep doing the same thing over and over, they're gonna still not trust that that we're not gonna hurt their feelings or whatever. Because I, you know, it does hurt your feelings when somebody gets counteraggressive with you. And yeah, just try to try to do better next time, you know.
SPEAKER_02:And uh, for those of us that our Christian faith would be uh that those of us who are, you know, serious about a a Christian walk, well, the whole the you know, the coronation of of King Jesus happens at Golgotha on a cross. And he came into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. Plenty of reasons to be counteraggressive and be justified in doing so, right? But didn't pander, didn't protest, didn't bring an army, didn't fight back, but also didn't uh yeah, didn't pander or just say what people wanted to hear, but spoke truth and love and we're not gonna be counteraggressive, and this is the way, isn't it? This is the way.
SPEAKER_05:So if a parent wanted to change something just starting today, what's the single most important thing to shift important to shift you recommend?
SPEAKER_04:I mean, first you gotta forgive yourself if you're feeling a way about the past. Said it earlier, this is never there's never a it's never a bad time to start something new, right? And anything we start new has to start somewhere. So first let's for forgive ourselves for it for what's what has happened. Seek to make things better and seek to make yourself better.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was gonna say being honest with yourself about what you think is at the root of it. Because I think there's definitely maybe some pain at the root of it. And so just trying to find where it's stemming from.
SPEAKER_05:All right. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you would like to contact us and ask a question, our email address is podcast at calfarley.org. I'll make sure and leave leave a link in the description. And as always, remember you might have to loan out your Cortex Day. Just make sure you get it back.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for listening to Brain Based Parenting. We hope you enjoyed this show. If you would like more information about CalFarley's Boys Ranch, are interested in employment, would like information about placing your child, or would like to help us help children by donating to our mission, please visit calfarley.org. You can find us on all social media platforms by searching for CalFarley's. Thank you for spending your time with us and have a blessed day.
