Brain Based Parenting
Brain Based Parenting, The Boys Ranch Podcast for families.
We all know how hard being a parent is, and sometimes it feels like there are no good answers to the difficult questions families have when their kids are struggling.
Our goal each week will be to try and answer some of those tough questions utilizing the knowledge, experience, and professional training Cal Farley’s Boys Ranch has to offer.
Contact us: email
podcasts@calfarley.org
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To Apply:
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For More Information about Cal Farley's Boys Ranch:
https://www.calfarley.org/
Music:
"Shine" -Newsboys
CCS License No. 9402
Brain Based Parenting
Why One-Size-Fits-All Consequences Fail And What To Do Instead
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
When does “fair” actually get in the way of growth? We explore why sameness doesn’t equal fairness and how individualized care transforms behavior by meeting the need beneath it.
We walk through the mindset shift from black-and-white punishments to curiosity-driven connection. You’ll hear practical scripts for cooling off before you consequence, questions that uncover motivation, and ways to involve kids in deciding what repair looks like. From the compliant bookworm who benefits from quiet time to the impulsive teen who needs movement and co-regulation, we show why context is everything.
Listen, share with a caregiver who needs a reset, and leave a quick review so more families can find Brain-Based Parenting.
Contact:
podcasts@calfarley.org
To Donate:
https://secure.calfarley.org/site/Donation2?3358.donation=form1&df_id=3358&mfc_pref=T
To Apply:
https://apply.workable.com/cal-farleys-boys-ranch/j/25E1226091/
For More Information about Cal Farley's Boys Ranch:
https://www.calfarley.org/
Music:
"Shine" -Newsboys
CCS License No. 9402
Welcome to Brain-Based Parenting, the Boys Ranch podcast for families. We all know how hard being a parent is, and sometimes it feels like there are no good answers to the difficult questions families have when their kids are struggling. Our goal each week will be to try and answer some of those tough questions, utilizing the knowledge, experience, and professional training Cal Farley's Boys Ranch has to offer. Now here is your host, Cal Farley Staff Development Coordinator, Joshua Sprung.
SPEAKER_01:Hello and welcome. Today we're going to talk about the importance of individualized care.
SPEAKER_04:To do that today, I'm joined by Sam Cerna, Assistant Administrator of Residential Communities. Danny Pechtel, Executive Director of Ranch Operations.
SPEAKER_01:All right, let's kick off with our question of the day. Since we're talking about individualized care, what consequence did you have as a kid that your parents thought was really effective, but you didn't really mind?
SPEAKER_04:I mine was my parents sending me to my room. I liked being in my room. Everything I wanted it to do was in my room. And so, yeah, it sending me there. I I could act sad and everything, but I wasn't really wasn't.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I think the the room thing used to make me crazy. But my parents did the thing. The lights come on. Just get out of here. And so I loved that, man. Just be outside all day, do whatever I want, ride my bike. I miss that. Yeah, I know. I I love that one. And now I realize it probably wasn't a consequence. I was just in her hair and she Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Mine was getting sent to my room too. I didn't get in trouble too much, but when I did go into my room, that was actually I'd go read books, go sleep, you know, just hang out. So that was I was perfectly okay with that. All right. So when we talk about individualized care and parenting, what does that really mean and what does it not mean?
SPEAKER_02:You know, I think one of the things that we think about when we talk about it individualized care and how it runs up against different things is we we talk about being fair. And sometimes as parental figures, we think that being fair is giving everybody the same, but really individualized care will allows us to meet the kid where they're at and know what's working for that kid. And how do I make what I'm about to do with this kid have the most impact and the most help? Because, like your first question said, you know, sending my sister to her room was it didn't bother her like it didn't bother you guys. It made me crazy, right? And you got to figure out what are you gonna do is it's gonna be effective, but also what are you gonna do that helps them get to where they go or helps them learn the thing they need to learn to move forward.
SPEAKER_04:And fairness is not sameness, right? It it doesn't mean what we talk about a lot is a kid who two kids do the same thing might have a different consequence. And the reason is they might have different, they might be different ages, they might have different history of doing things. Even my own kids, I mean, my kids are only a year and a half apart, and I I couldn't consequence them the same because they have different mentalities, different different ways of doing things. And so that's that's what it means to me is it's individual. Everybody needs a different thing. Also, they each each got individual strengths, so there's things that you know they're good at. So I gotta take care of my son in a way that didn't work for my daughter, and so there's different things. Now they might notice and say, hey, that's not really fair. I'm like, hey, but that's what your brother needs, or that's what your sister needs.
SPEAKER_01:So why is individualized care more effective than one size fits all consequences?
SPEAKER_02:When we do what we do with kids, whether it's positive or negative, what you know, are we are we rewarding them or is it consequencing? I think we have to really look at the need. Like an example I'd use on this one is we had a situation at another agency. We caught two of our kids smoking marijuana. And so we got a consequence of that. We can't let that go. We wanted to handle it, but what we did with each kid was completely different because we really backed up and looked at what's going on. So one of the kids had graduated at 16, had a full-time job, and was taking college classes. She was going 9,000 miles an hour, and on some level, she was doing that thing we didn't want her to do as a way to get away away and take a break. In fact, I think they were together when we caught them. The other kid didn't fit in. And she was just doing something to maybe get a friend. And so how we handled that and how we deal with that with both those girls, I've got to find a way to meet that need, right? Back to trust-based relational intervention. Meet the need, meet the need, meet the need. And so we pulled one girl aside and we had a lot of talks about hey, maybe you need to slow down. And, you know, if you need a way to take a break and relax, this isn't it. What can we do to that, right? And then with the other girl, a lot of her what we would call consequences in that was about putting her in things that made her engage with other people. So when you think about your consequences, it's not always something they don't like, so they learn not to do it again. Sometimes your consequence in and how you do it to teach what you want to teach engages them in a different way, right? So, you know, one girl is gonna, hey, look, so many times this, you know, we're taking these activities away from you to slow your life down. You know, not just because we want you to hurt, but you need to learn to slow your life down. I'm gonna connect a staff to you that's that can you can talk to and help you realize when you're overwhelmed and handle it in a different way. And with the other girl, instead of, we used to call it time ins, where that staff overly engaged with her and then parried that engagement and engagement with other kids so she could talk start to build connections. You know, well, you know, Miss Caitlin is going to this church activity or whatever, you know, you're going with her today. That's part of what's happening. And then, and then, you know, that a good staff can facilitate that kid kind of making friends at a youth group, or is it making her be at the kitchen table because everybody's at the kitchen table instead of her in a room? But I think in that situation, the consequences for both the girls was completely different. And of course, they came into my office a week after they talked to each other and realized they got different consequences. Like, that's not fair. And I was like, well, and we had to talk. I was like, this is why I'm doing it, because you're different and you did this for a different reason. And we're trying to teach you something. It's not just about you getting the same because the two of you aren't the same.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and I really I really like that approach because it's like we talked about earlier, and we had a we had a podcast not too long ago that we recorded and it it was called counteraggression. And a lot of times when parents are angry, you know, because something's happened, they they do want to just punish the person, and you know, because what you just said, hey, let have them learn through pain in essence, right? Or through a consequence, something they don't like. But that's so wonderful because it seemed like it seems like it's so much work to do all that extra thing, but actually what each need each each kid needed, and by giving them what they need, that's how that's how you win, right? At the end, they might do it again. But here's the cool thing the cool thing is they're both building the connections in a different way. One of them is learning, hey, I need to I have well, the parents have to be sometimes the monitor for the kids because you heard that other girl was running 100 miles an hour and she doesn't know how to stop. So you that was a great thing to say, hey, we we have to be your your barometer, we have to stop, we have to stop you a little bit. And the other girl just needed more connection. Those two things were pretty, really awesome ways to handle those situations.
SPEAKER_01:So why do strictly black and white consequences sometimes fall short even in otherwise healthy, well-structured homes?
SPEAKER_02:The the thing with black and white consequences is sometimes the parent, especially when you're really tired, it's easy and quick and you don't have to use you don't have to think. And so in the moment you're doing something that's pretty black and white, it it's cut and dry. And there's and on some level, there's nothing wrong with cut and dry consequences. But sometimes when we do it, we do it because we're tired, because we're worn out, because we don't have the next thing to do. In the front end, it ends up costing us more in the back end. Because what we didn't do in the black and white consequences, we didn't address the issue. We're looking at the symptom of the problem and not what's causing it, right? With the other thing with those girls, we we could have done something really different and we could have just had a black and white, oh, you did this, you lose these privileges, da da da da. But in that, we may not be stopping it from happening again because we didn't address why did it happen. And I think this is why this is so important in parenting is to be curious. Yes, right? I want to be curious in my consequences because it is that curiosity that lets you know what's really happened, because a lot of times what we think happened or what we're seeing on the surface is not the problem. And unless we address what's going on underneath the water, the rest of the iceberg, the behavior is more likely to repeat. Now, just because we did it the way we did it with the two girls we talked about, or you do something really effective that's connecting with teenagers, doesn't mean it's not gonna happen again. Yeah, because they're teenagers and this is part of learning. It's gotta happen more than once sometimes for them. But also for us, if we're not addressing what's going on, the likelihood of this behavior repeating or getting worse increases. And so that's why there's times where it works, but there's times where you got to get to the need, and if you don't, especially if you're seeing it over and over and over, you gotta figure out what's going on there. Uh, you know, or if it's a big thing. On big things, don't go black and white, get curious, ask questions, figure out how we got here. And then that's gonna give you a better idea what you need to do consequencing, or maybe things in the kid's life that you need to intervene and change that you don't realize is causing this issue.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, because if we're not curious and we do something and it works, we just got lucky.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_04:We just got lucky. The other thing I was thinking as you were you were reiterating that story was even sometimes when when I was a house parent or and a parent, you know, you'd you'd hit a button and you're like, oh, that worked. And then even that could become a thing where you're gonna, oh, last time this worked, I'll try it again. What I like is we can think about that, but ultimately, again, if you're not curious and you don't find out this other kid's specific situation, a different kid, that same thing that just worked for these two girls will not work on the third kid because it'll be a whole completely different thing. Everybody's built different, everybody's got a different life, a different history. Our relationship with them is different, everything is so different. And uh, so yeah, I don't I don't really believe in luck. I don't really want to be lucky. I want to I want to know that because then I feel like I'm wasting my time. Like I I got so much time in my life to connect with my kids, to have fun with them, and the consequencing and the and and the teaching is is is a big part of being a parent. Yeah, that's why don't we just find out and try not try not to just be lucky, right? You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Lucky's nice, but lucky doesn't work, you can't just be it's not about the way you live your life. That's not a strategy, right? Yes, it does. It's not a strategy. It's not. I love it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So why do you think caregivers and parents like these black and white consequences?
SPEAKER_04:It gives me something to do, and I'm tired, and I gotta do something about this, and I don't got the energy to I don't got the energy.
SPEAKER_02:Or I don't know. I mean, I don't know. There's something to that I think when we talk about in in non-care settings like we do, when you talk about a home setting like you know, with my kids, the black and white consequences happen because immediate action is really good for younger kids. Like they do something, and it being immediate works well for younger kids, and sometimes as the adults, we don't adapt to their to their development. And but with teenagers, taking a beat a beat and taking a breath before I come with a consequence is important. And but what happens sometimes, and I realized the other day, you know, I got a 13-year-old, and I just I I we we just rolled through something quick, and I realized after I rolled through it quick is well, he's not eight anymore. And maybe I need to sit down and talk with him about this one. Is there something going on here that I don't know? And as a 13-year-old, I don't have to tell him what's gonna happen right now, right? And maybe the other reason we do black and white consequences is we're heated too. You know, sometimes that that's how they stack. So I'm gonna use a personal example. We talked about our parents. The downfall uh we got to put a little parameter like back history on this. For those of you that are Gen Xers that remember, there was a point where vanilla ice was really cool. And this is important to this story. And so, and I was I was what we would call strong-willed teenager, and I was pushing back, and mom and I, and mom is also very strong-willed, and mom and I locked up over something that had happened. I don't even remember what we locked up over. It was probably something stupid. And we're in the living room, and I distinctly remember this. So I had like an adoptive foster brother that lived with us. My stepfather was there, and my sister was there, and my mother and I were the real strong-willed in the people in the house, and we started going back and forth. And she said something, and I said something back, and it started going. And I remember her looking at me and saying, If you say one more word, I'm gonna ground you for two weeks. And and I at this point, I may have still had that really bad vanilla eyes haircut, and I looked at her and I went, word. And she went through the roof, and as soon as I said word, I remember this. My stepbed turned around and went to his room, my brother went back to his room, and my sister just sat down on the couch, like, oh, this is gonna be entertaining. And we ramped, right? And the consequence is the talk about consequence, it's like I think that maybe I was grounded until I was 35 by the time she was done, because she would add two weeks and I would say word. Word. And we stapped, right? And and of course, we both mad, nothing good is happening out of this. Eventually I go back to my room. My brother's like, what are you thinking? I was like, I don't know. That wasn't that's probably worth it. He's like, You were never going out again. And of course, and and at some point, my mom's got to realize, okay, I can't leave him grounded this long, I gotta go back and reconcile. But we do that as parents, and and and then we throw those consequences out because we get flustered, then they get us flustered, and we don't take that minute to step back, you know, and not ground our 17-year-old kid until he's 35. I you know, and I I can remember times when I was house parenting and I was young, I would do the same thing. And you would lock up. And so one of the things I learned with my teen boys in particular, because they they could get me in that frustration mode. I had one team boy, he he always needed to know right now when this was over what it was. And I always like to wait until the next day to give the boys the consequence because tonight's over. You're gonna go to bed. It doesn't matter. You already know right now, tonight this is where it is. I wanted to think, and at one time he the kid pushed me really hard about why won't you tell me tonight what's gonna happen? And I remember looking at him and say, because tonight I'm mad. Do you really want me to give you your consequence while I'm still mad? Or do you want me to calm down and tomorrow morning talk to you? He said, That'd probably be better. Come talk to me in the morning. And I was like, Yeah, it's gonna be better for you if I talk to you in the morning. And so I I think that's part of the reason we can hit so hard. One, we didn't adapt to adapt from when they were little bitty kids to their adolescents now. We haven't adapted to their their development. Or two, we are tired, we are frustrated, they're saying word, and we're throwing out another two weeks of being grounded.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, I I think the adaptation is is something. And and you know, without awareness, you you just keep doing that. I just can't imagine telling my 13-year-old, no, no, you know, or please go to timeout. Like that's that's not gonna work for them. And but no, I really do like, I think for me, it was difficult to adapt because some of it's fear, right? Um I'm scared to let my kids go and they're gonna get in trouble, and that's gonna reflect bad on me. And you know, so right, the black and white consequence, the grounding, that here, you're not going out, or you're I'm taking your phone, like all the things. Sometimes that's appropriate stuff, but it's just it's just simpler for me to just do something and and keep them out of keep them out of the uh the ability to get into trouble. And so that's kind of a mistake a young parent could make, especially once those kids became teenagers. Well, they become they they get kind of upset with you about it. And it's not reasonable. I also do like the the step back portion of it. Think we talked about that in the in our counteragged was it the counteraggression podcast we talked about, we we talked about stepbacks because you know it it just doesn't work when I'm mad. It it not at all. Like I'm completely unreasonable when I'm upset. And if my wife's upset, we're all more unreasonable because I'm upset that she's upset, and then I'm gonna have to deal with all this mess. I'm just kidding. But uh, you know, it's just uh it's uh it's way simpler. I I even said this last one of these the last times. I said, hey, we why don't we just ask them to tell me about what happened? Tell me what happened, what were you thinking? You know, not rudely, hey, what were you thinking? What was going through your head right now? You know, and then let's see how we can help. Because sometimes it's just a cry for help.
SPEAKER_02:And I think, you know, kind of going on what you said, the how do you have that conversation afterwards? One of the things I've always liked to do in that conversation afterwards was if you were me, what consequence would you give? Right? And having that one and let them think about it for a minute and come up with it. Now, your savvy one will say, I think you would, you know, for one day take away my potato chips or something, you know, easy. And I'm like, Yeah, that ain't happening. Right. But involving them in it's good, but also you can use that, like Sam was saying, as a bridge to what's going on with you. Hey, look, it's important in what however I handle this that I'm setting up so that you learn and you go forward. And then, you know, as a parent, you have that thing that Sam talked about where it's going wrong and now, oh, and it's gonna go on their permanent record at school, and then they're gonna be in ISS. And and then and in this catastrophic thing in your mind, it goes from they talked back to a teacher to they're going to live in prison, right? And and you go there almost like a crazy sitcom in your mind. Yeah, you you go through this thing and you have that anxiety and be able to sit to the other kid and say, Look, I gotta do something about this. We can't have this again. What I'm worried about, and you share a little bit of your anxiety with a kid, and I want, I want to change this for you. What do you think is fair? If you were me, what would you do to help you? And if you've got a good relationship and you're connected with a kid, sometimes that goes really well. And sometimes it doesn't. You have to be prepared for them to be like, no, just take my potato chips, really. We're good. And you have to come up where you're gonna go from there. But even offering the connection makes it go. And remember, this is the first time you ever do this with a kid. They don't, they think you've lost your core. Right? If they're ready, you're used to those rigid lines, and then you do this, they're not gonna know how to respond to you the first time, but keep trying it because just like you're learning a new skill, they're learning a new skill, and this is a new thing in the relationship, and you get ride it out for a minute and keep talking, keep talking.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I like that because you know, at some at some point you bridge a gap into where you know you're trying to teach them to be adults, and and that conversation, you know, just having that, you know. And that's something my mom, you know, my mom could yell a little bit, but you know, there was times my mom knew I was a reasonable overall. I was a good kid at school and every and everywhere I went. Yeah, did I get in trouble sometimes? Sure. But so my mom knew I was pretty reasonable. She'd lose her cool, we could and I could lose my cool, like you said. But when we could come back and talk, we love each other. When we can come back and talk, I really respected that about about my mom that she could that she could come back and say, hey, this is what happened. This is why. You know, it's not safe. That neighborhood that you walked through is not safe, Sam. You know, and so she knew things that I didn't know. And and I I tell I tell this story a lot to people. Hey, you guys got the small picture. Little the kids, we have the small picture. Parents know the adults around the neighborhoods that are bad and all, and us, hey, I'm just gonna cruise through my bike or walk down wherever is fastest to get home. And she's like, Yeah, you're in doing that again. But she explains the fear to me, and I think that's that's really awesome. You know, another thing that you gotta prepare for is that the kids gonna knowledge drop you. So sometimes they're gonna give you some insight about yourself that you are not aware of. You know, one of my kids told me one time, hey, I had to do it this way. Because you always say no. Oh. And then, you know, if I didn't even bother asking to give me an example because she'd have given me 50, you know? And yeah, I realized, hey, I'm a little bit, we're a little bit controlling it. We're just we're just scared parents. And and I'm just gonna say no. Well, how can I give her some yeses? How can I do that? And that's reasonable because I do have a teenager on my hands now. It's way different.
SPEAKER_01:So both of you actually mentioned when give consequences as l little kids, they're kind of black and white, and we don't adapt. But the kids sometimes do adapt. Why, why is that important to be aware of that when they adapt to our and we don't to black and white consequences?
SPEAKER_02:I think it's in I think it's important to realize when they've adapted and we didn't for a few reasons. I can remember there were times, and my parents were very black and white. I would make a decision and honestly in my head, way out, is this one gonna be worth it or not? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know it's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or there were times where I was already in trouble and already had done something, and there wasn't any reason to stop because it really wasn't gonna change. And and this is where it is, and no matter what, when I get home, this is how it's gonna go. And so might as well I remember saying that to the front one, I'm gonna make this one worth it. I'm already in this much trouble. I might as well get my money's worth. Right. And we want to avoid some of that thinking in kids. So that that's one reason why we need to know when they've adapted and we haven't. And another reason we want to do that is just we're losing the connection. I think that's the hardest thing as a parent. Like professionally, in what we do, I'm really good at that. I I think at home, our kids grow up so fast and there's a different perspective in your house when and it it happens so fast, and you realize, oh yeah, they're not a baby anymore. Yeah, they're not four anymore. Oh man, he's 13. I gotta deal with that, right? And you're and you're moving through that. And as a parent, we can get so busy, especially in this line of work, we're so attuned to all the other kids around us that we can lose that attunement to our own. Or if it's not this line of work, if we're in stressful jobs and you're busy and you're you're doing club sports and you're running all over, in that you lose some of that and you can lose it in this. And when you realize you're losing it in this, you need to take a step back and see what else am I losing because we're going too fast.
SPEAKER_01:So, what's the difference between being consistent in our values versus being rigid in our consequences, and how does this impact kids in the long term?
SPEAKER_04:Well, my values rarely change. I mean, I teach my kids my values, they know them, you know. Sometimes they test them. That keeps gives me a locus of, I guess, stability, I guess you can say. We they they knew what I was absolutely down for, and they knew absolutely things I just didn't like. My kids knew it, I told them it, all that. My personal children didn't generally challenge my values. In fact, to answer the question, I think is they they kind of followed the same values, you know, they we're we're gonna do the right thing. You know, that's that's that's a value. Even when we do the wrong thing, you know, owning what you did wrong or not over lying, because sometimes lying is a protection thing. You know, our c your kids your kids know the right thing, and that's the long-term effect, is that they throughout their mistakes and their peer pressure and everything they're dealing with, they know inside what's right. Sometimes peer pressure can get them, but you you gotta trust that you taught them what it is they need to know to deal with the situations they're in.
SPEAKER_02:I think also when we talk about that, is if we are too rigid and too locked in to our consequences and not what's going on, it will actually undermine our values. Is if we want them to really learn, we have to go back to that value and figure out what it is, what is that value and where are we at in this issue with our kids. If I want to teach them the value, then I can't be rigid in my consequence, right? And that doesn't mean I'm backing off, and that doesn't mean I'm easy, and it doesn't mean I'm gonna spoil my kids. If I back off and say, look, this is the value I'm wanting them to learn, how do I help them learn it, other than just making them uncomfortable? And that's where we're going. And I think a lot of that comes back to backing up and realizing is this an issue with my parenting style for something my parents did with me that didn't work? And is this an issue with me? And how do what do I need to do to have the right impact and teach the right value to my kids? Because sometimes us being locked in what we're doing in that way and moving them forward and making them uncomfortable to get to where we want them to go really truly undermines what our true values are.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Right? Am I teaching my value and how I'm consequencing? It takes more time, it takes more thought, it takes more relationship. And that on the front end, that's more. On the back end, it's less. Because I'm less likely to deal with this or down the line, I'm actually less likely to end up in that nightmare scenario in my head where they eventually become, you know, whatever. And that's hard as a parent. And it takes self reflection. So maybe the reason we do don't do it is we don't self reflect. We have to look at ourselves before we figure out what we're doing with our kids.
SPEAKER_01:So, how does temperament, personality, and developmental stage affect which consequences actually work for a kid?
SPEAKER_02:It affects everything.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's a simple that's me, I'm I was easy. I wasn't generally gonna fight back with my mom and if I I generally knew I made a mistake, uh it if for whatever reason it happened, I did it and I'd deal with whatever's gonna come. But my personality was one of, yeah, I wanna do the right thing, I respect authority, things like that. You know, I I had brothers that weren't they didn't have the same values that I had, you know, and and for whatever reason they they felt different and got into different stuff. And my mom had to handle them differently. You know, she tried doing the same thing. Me, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be out of trouble quick because I'm gonna go to my room or whatever is the consequence, I'm gonna be compliant. Also, I figured that out because it's black and I knew I knew if I served my time and I did and I did good behavior, I would be out quicker. I had the ability to do that. My siblings did not have the ability to do that because they they were darn near, well, they called it ADHD back. And they were there, they were my brother was hyper and he he just can't sit still. So sticking him in the room is a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing for him. And it was a nightmare, and he ended up getting in more trouble.
SPEAKER_02:And me, I could just I I think temperament personality and where they are developmentally is huge. If if you're really wanting to what you do to have an impact, it it works. But that doesn't mean that we're not consistent, right? There's some things we have to be consistent with when we talk black and white, and there's some areas where that's effective, it's consistent.
SPEAKER_04:You know, and with my kids, like you know, I knew my kids' history. I knew my kids growing up. You know, I I ended up working with a bunch of young young young kids here. And if you if you're fostering a kid or adopting a child, you know, you you're not actually always sure the things these kids have gone through. And that means that their developmental level mentally might be a little different. So you might be looking at a 15-year-old, but not actually have a 15-year-old mentally. And it's very complicated to see a a person in a man's body, for example, that acts like a 10-year-old. And that's difficult. It's so hard. And you you almost can't do the same, you can't do the same thing. Yeah, they one is maybe they don't understand as well, they're more impulsive. And so you have to take all that stuff into account. And that's where where Danny said, Hey, let's be curious about stuff. Hey, what were you thinking when that happened? Or, you know, just you know, breaking down the scenario. I like the whole idea just to sit with somebody and just sit with somebody and speak. Because I do think that if you're creating fear in in young people, especially if you're you're not the one who started their life, right? If you're creating fear, that creates a distance in your relationship. And it makes it way more difficult to sit down later when you didn't model it first. But here's what I want to say. I do I do like to encourage listeners and say that, hey, listen, when when you realize something or you hear something new and you want to you want to change it, it just start. You know, me as a young house parent, I had we used to have a color system and we we had these prescribed consequences. And I remember one time Josh was my boss at it, in fact, you know, and Josh came to my house and said, Hey, we're not doing that anymore. You're gonna test out this thing. And I'm like, I looked at him like he was crazy. Hey, these kids will not listen to me, no way. No way. What am I what am I gonna do? Why will they do anything I ask then? And I had nine little girls, ten little girls back then. And he just said, Hey, just treat them like kids. Hey, but they're not my kids. I remember the specific argument. Josh, they're not my kids, Josh. You know, they're not, it's different, you know? And he says, Hey, just trust it. We'll we'll help you, we'll back you up, we'll teach you, right? Again, small picture. I didn't know what was going to happen in the ranch in the future that this is the way we were gonna go at the time. This is the small picture I was given. You know, some of my kids didn't like that either. The the the blue and gold, the blue kids and the green kids were like, Oh no, this is terrible. I don't get to stay up later. But the red and the kids who kind of fell on red and mostly yellows, they had they had more privileges because they were just and it wasn't that they weren't ever in trouble, but here was the interesting part of that whole the whole thing is as I adapted, it's not like I didn't do anything. I I still have a real rigid belief in I I gotta have very much structure, especially with kids under 12. I had a lot of structure in my home. But learning the cool part about I realized how much work I was doing by having these kids not be able to go across the street and play because they were on a different color. I thought, hey, that's I was the one being punished too. Right? So the cool thing was I can now just sit down and talk, and it was okay for me to decide, go play. And nobody was gonna get mad at me about it. Because really, the truth is the only reason I did it was because I was kind of told we need to have this as the system. So it was so liberating to be able just to let them be kids. And then it then I just went and we went, and I found so much that our relationships with those kids just hundred percent better, hundred percent, hundreds, because I could just make a decision. It was a beautiful thing, you know.
SPEAKER_02:And and that I think that's important is that sometimes as a parent, we're scared to do the thing. Yeah, and then but we just do it and we realize, oh my gosh, this is better. Yes, we were right. I can remember where I realized the black and white consequences level systems, yada yada. I one of my big aha moments was and I was much younger. Um, we're not gonna say how much younger, but a lot. And I just moved out from being a therapeutic house parent. And so I was kind of at Children's Home's out, it's kind of like the veteran staff trainer, they would drop in a hot spot. So at the uh the assessment center eventually I got to run, they had a kid, they'd taken in a sip group, and they had this little boy that was he was 10, but he was like 125 IQ, crazy intelligent. He was blowing their doors off. And and their and in their consequence levels, all the staff were losing their minds. And in their color systems or whatever, and safety plans or whatever, basically they'd got it down because he was aggressive and he was throwing things and he was doing whatever, and just straight out refusing to do anything they wanted him to do. Like, and they were just had an impasse. There's no more consequencing we can possibly give this kid, like because he'd flipped the bed or whatever, he'd gotten to where he had a mattress on the floor and whatever. And they called me over to deal with this kid. So I pop up in his door, and and of course the kids knew if I showed up, you were probably really in trouble. It wasn't going well, because that was kind of the and and so I popped into his door and leaned over and looked at him. He's like, dude, because I liked him. Like, because I could see that that intelligence and that slyness, and he he they'd lived on the streets, right? I could see that in him. I like it. I thought he was fun, you know, and everybody else was just so frustrated with him. And and I looked at him, I was like, What are you doing? I was like, he's like, I don't know. And and I was I was like, man, doesn't this suck to be back here? Why why why do you want to like uh oh I'm trying to just figure out like what can I do? How can I help the staff that are just don't know what to do with him? And then how can I help him? Because the situation isn't good for him. He's got himself into such a hole. And I remember him looking at me and smiling, he said, Danny, there's no consequences you can give me. None of it matters. I was like, why doesn't it matter to you? And he looked up at me and smiled real big and he said, Because where I've been, there's things you're gonna have to do. They're gonna have to feed me three times a day. I'm gonna sleep whether the bed frame's here or not. I'm gonna sleep in a warm bed tonight with a whatever, and I'm in the same house with my sisters. There is nothing you can do that's remotely like what I've been living in. And I smiled and said, Oh man. You're right. You know, and then and then at that point, I and it was it was just like this clarifying moment because we'd always dealt with kids with trauma. And I had naturally moved, especially as a house parent, kind of away from some of the consequences I'd done and more into relational, like I was thinking.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I want them to do the right thing because I talked to them because of our relationship, or because they know it's the right thing to do, not because they're scared I might ground up. Like I want them to do the right thing to do because it's the right thing to do. And so I'd kind of moved away from some of our color stuff, and it was in that moment with that kid and the way he did it, it really clarified to me why that level system rigidity doesn't work. Because at some level, he can he's good with this.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And we, in no way, in our ethical minds, we're gonna do anything to him remotely like what he'd been through. So it doesn't work because you're not gonna do enough to that kid for it sting enough for to change the behavior. You have to go to a different approach, you have to go to something different to help them find their way. And I remember going back to the the person that was the director of the assessment said, Okay, I'm gonna need you to think of this in a different way. And she looked at me and started laughing. She's like, What do you want? And she said, because we are losing our minds. I said, Okay, your staff are really not gonna like what I'm about to do. You know, and I kind of sat down with her. I was like, This kid needs, I'm gonna take this kid and we're going to the, you know, we had a gym on the campus, so we're going to the gym. I'm going to take him and go to the gym. He needs out of that room. This is what's going on. And then I ran it to her and she was like, Ew. I was like, Yeah, it ain't gonna work. We we we have to go a different way with this kid. Yeah. Of course, we we were still locked into behavior mod back then, and so I think the wording I used was like, your negative consequences are gonna be ineffective with this kid. I need you to move into some kind of positive. You have to put something out in front of me. Which is not the way I want to phrase that now. We need to get into the need, but but that was that's how how we got there in 1999, 2000, whatever it was. But that that that's it goes back to that, right? A lot of times his parents were doing the thing because if this is bad enough, they'll change, but that's not the way it happens. People will suffer through terrible things. And it doesn't affect change. You have to you have to move in with that relationship. You have to move in with why are you doing this? And for him, there was a level of I just want control, and also a level of man, this is better than anywhere I've been. And I can control my environment because I can control my adult.
SPEAKER_04:And he was used to the And the thinking change is is really neat because without that, where where does this kid go? I mean, where where does he go? Eventually he can't be there or he does or escalates into a place where you know he ends up in a worse spot and then you know, not like you said, is there a worse spot for a person who's lived on the street? Because no matter what, he knows the things we have to provide, you know? And and I really but but the thinking is is is the important thing because it's like me. I think I don't know, should I ever align with a color system personally? It's just I would do a job and that's the job I gotta do. And your peers really look at you a way if you're doing things different. And I remember when uh Josh remember when we moved our home or of girls into the right in the middle of a boys' community. We did that and we asked for that. That's where all our friends work too. And we wanted our kids to have sim similar relationships with same-age peers. Uh they just happen to be boys. We're a one-of-a-kind home, and the older girls just had a different thing that they were doing, and the young boys were the same age, and we supervised very well. We knew we did, and we went down there. Oh, uh, two things happened, and this is only my again my perspective. I didn't have the bigger picture back then. Well, one one, the other staff were mad because now I got girls around the boys, which I think is healthy. Two, I'm doing things different than everybody else is doing. The staff around me is feeling like I'm hey, Sam and Sam and Sonny aren't holding people accountable, which wasn't true. Because everybody knows what kids do in a facility, right? So everybody knows when my kids were in trouble or whatever. And you know, the the one thing I could do though is I I had relationships with all those kids. So if Josh called and said, Hey, they need you at the school, here I go. Yep, you know, if I need a pro here I go. I'm processing, I'm doing, I'm doing all the work because I'm I'm not I'm their caregiver. And so me and me and my wife, we and we'd come home and sometimes it was a discussion, and then they'd be so mad because they see the kids outside playing. They're like, Well, how come that kid doesn't have a consequence? Well, she did, she did. She sat with me and we talked, and this is what happened. And I can't talk about what you know to them, but they're like, hey, but you're not doing anything about it. I said, Hey, yeah, I did, you know, and so that's kind of the hard thing. I think so. For you to have that thought in the late 90s, and I was here in 06 when I started, I can't even imagine what people were looking at you like at that time.
SPEAKER_02:I want to go into something that you talked about, is that thing, well, you gotta hold them accountable. And sometimes our consequencing doesn't move the kid forward, and it doesn't give the kid what they need to move forward, and it's not effective because there's this perception, both internally and externally, a pressure internally and externally, that they need to feel this, they need to know this. But one of the things we know from human behavior is it doesn't always change. And for the kid, like I was talking about at that assessment center, that was never gonna change. And it and I remember later, he great kid, turned out to be a great adult that he was in, he was struggling, and this was several years later, he was struggling in the school. And the school was really good that we worked with, it was a small school, but they had a lot of black and white, they're schools, they've got they're managing all these kids, and I get why it's hard to do individual care in the school district because you've got so many kids and so few adults. And so he knew his English teacher didn't like it, and he was always in trouble in her class, and he was always in trouble all the time, and it used to blow me away because he was so incredibly intelligent, but his grades always just kind of stunned. He got in trouble, he did something, and they kicked him out to DAP. And this was at this point, it'd be a couple of years later. So you're probably early 2000s, back when Maury Povich was either doing paternity tests or sending kids, or he would send them to boot camp, right? And that was the thing.
SPEAKER_03:Send your kid to a boot camp.
SPEAKER_02:And so the DAP right back then for this school was a boot camp. Like they had drill instructors, and they ran, they did like half day of working or whatever, and then they were like running up and down hills with tires and stuff. Ridiculousness. Like it was it was boot camp. And so he gets there and his grades come right through the roof because he's got this set time, and as soon as it's done, whatever else happens. But basically, he's spending half his day running around and he's gotta get up super early in the morning. He's doing push-ups, he's doing sit-ups, like it's ridiculous. Like it does not sound like a good time to me, right? But he's killing his his work because he just gotta work and he's not really a distraction, it's just self-paced, get it done. And they send a packet and you get it done. And so he gets back to school when DAP ends after going through that junk for like three or four weeks, and it took no joke by lunch. Oh no. We got a call, they're sending him back to DAP. So he gets back, and I'm gonna what the heck? And so I sit down, I'm like, what is this? And he looks up and he says something I'll never forget. He said, That teacher, and he pointed out, I think it was Joe Sheen like, he said, and I know those drill instructors run me up and down the hills and whatever, but I can get my work done, and I kind of like that. That's I'd rather do my work that way anyways. He's like, but they like me. They want me to do well. He's like, and I want to be somewhere where I'm like, and I I remember thinking, whoa. And and I think that sometimes when we get into our black and white, is we unintentionally give the kids, because of the nature of the system we're running, the impression we don't like them. Yeah, we don't care for them, that we're, you know, Carol Burnett from Annie, right? That it's just hard knock life, and we're doing that. And and we can do that with our own kids because we can get so locked into our anxiety and what we're trying to do with our our own children, even, that we create this distance between us because what's going on and the time that we're giving and the consequencing and this black and white, that they no longer see us as this relationship, this bonding, but the way we're operating in our black and white has hurt the relationship. And and the other part of it is, and this is so critical, your children need to always know that you like them, your kids in care, your foster kids. They need to know no matter what you like them, because the kids will realize or or sometimes falsely get the perception because the way we're handling it, that we don't like them. But if they know you like them and there's unquestionably you love them, then there's a lot of room for your mistakes because they know, yeah, I know, whatever, but you know, and I I I've I've worked with several staff over the years that didn't exactly do TBRI approach I wanted, but they love the kids unconditionally. And so even when they did things I didn't quite want, I'd have to correct, the kids would never blow up on them, even though in you know, if anybody else had said it that way. But Miss Wallace can get away with that because there's no doubt in their mind that Miss Wallace loves them. And I'd have to go to Miss Wallace and say, Hey, Miss Wallace, she's like, I know, Danny. You don't want me to say it that way again. Yes, ma'am, I don't want you to say it that way again. She said, But that kid knows I I know that kid knows you love her. I know that kid knows you love her. Don't say that. And and one of the best staff ever, but it was it was about that. And I think this is the big thing on fair or they have to be accountable or whatever. We have to decide whether what we're doing is harming the relationship, and they have to know that we love them no matter what, and that we're a team to get them to adulthood because that's what the goal is. It's not in this moment for compliance. My goal is to make you a productive adult.
SPEAKER_01:All right. Thank you so much for listening today. I hope you all will individually give us a five-star review and tell all your friends and family to listen to Brain-Based Parenting. Until next time, you might have to loan out your cortex today. Just make sure you remember and get it back.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for listening to Brain Based Parenting. We hope you enjoyed this show. If you would like more information about Cal Farley's Boys Ranch, are interested in employment, would like information about placing your child, or would like to help us help children by donating to our mission, please visit calfarly.org. You can find us on all social media platforms by searching for Cal Farley's. Thank you for spending your time with us and have a blessed day.
